Your Fat Friend. Let's Talk About It.

This week I grabbed my good friend Ela Law from @elalawnutrition to chat about the Your Fat Friend documentary, by Jeanie Finlay which followed Aubrey Gordon across 6 years, since she released an anonymous blog from an account called @yrfatfriend .

Aubrey has since written 2 New York Times Bestselling books (You Just Need to Lose Weight and What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat) and along with Michael Hobbes (adamantly NOT on instagram!) has created something truly special with the informative,  endearing and forever engaging Maintenance Phase podcast .

Ela and I chat about weight bias and how it permeates our society.    Neither Ela nor I have lived experience of being in a fat body and both of us were truly touched by being able to see the world even for a brief time through Aubrey's eyes.

At one point in the film, Aubrey alluded to the fact that she has been struggling with an eating disorder but really struggled to get the help and support she needed.  Eating disorders do not discriminate. They impact people of all body sizes,  of all ages,  ethnicities and genders.

We chat about repairing our relationship with food AND finally finding peace with our bodies when we live in a dieting culture and thinness is a value praised above all else.  It is the air that we breathe and the sea that we swim in.
Ela and I then segway into the world of Intuitive Eating.

I hope you enjoy this episode and let us know what you think. If you can PLEASE find an opportunity to watch Your Fat Friend It is a triumph and Aubrey and Jeanie IRL are simply a joy to be around and were both SO generous with their time.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So hello and welcome to another episode of the find. Your strong podcast. Say something a bit different. I got my good mate Ella law along just to have a bit of a chin wag about a film a documentary that we both recently saw called your fat friend

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Christine Chessman: from the wonderful Aubrey Gordon made by Jeannie Jeanie Finley. And we kind of thought, be really nice to talk about that. Our feelings about that film. And then maybe a little segue into intuitive eating

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Ela Law: and fat phobia with stigma and all of that stuff. So ella, welcome to the podcast, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here, and also being amongst all the royalty that you've interviewed, I feel I feel humbled and honored to be here. Thank you.

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Christine Chessman: You're part of that royalty, or yeah, I think I've got Evelyn coming up saying which, I'm very excited about Evelyn Triple a so if you don't know who that is, I'll put all links to her work that she's the co-founder of enjoying along with Elise Reshid recently, who is lovely, absolutely lovely, but I mean yes. So let's talk about the film. Ella.

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Ela Law: So we. This is something that I think we both find. I think you might have introduced me to the maintenance phase. Podcast but it's it's a podcast where they're, basically just debunking wellness, myth.

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Christine Chessman: or wellness winquery, as we like to call it, and it's it's a very entertaining, but also factual and informative, and I mean, I can't say enough good about it. But

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Christine Chessman: would you like to say anything about it?

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Ela Law: No, I would totally agree with you there. I mean, it's incredibly well researched. So it's not like an opinion in piece, although obviously there will be opinions in there. But Michael Hobbs and Aubrey Gordon are very, very clever people, and they're very, very well read, and they do their research, do their work. So any episode that comes out and you listen to it, you can. You can be sure that what they're telling you has been researched

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Ela Law: properly.

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And you know, I just I,

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Christine Chessman: I love that podcast from the minute that I started listening to it and some of the episodes are a bit more tongue in shaken, a bit more light hearted, but then some of them are. They delve really deep into subjects like about Bmi and the racist roots of fat phobia and diet culture, etc., etc.

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Christine Chessman: So it's definitely look, look at it and check it out. If you haven't already. But, Aubrey, there was a documentary film made about Aubrey because Aubrey Gordon was a blogger

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Christine Chessman: and she was known as your fat friend, and she didn't reveal her identity

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Christine Chessman: for quite some time. She wrote a blog and just and immediately resonated with people.

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Christine Chessman: And and I think this film just showed her journey from writing that blog through maintenance phase through to kind of the popularity through her book she's now written, is it 3 books that she's released. Yeah. So she's written to book. So the film just documented

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Christine Chessman: her journey from that first blog that she wrote

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Christine Chessman: and I wasn't expecting to be so moved by it. But you know I really it stuck with me for such a long time, and I had the absolute joy of meeting Aubrey.

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Christine Chessman: and Jeannie and Aubrey's mom. Which will make sense if you watch the documentary. But it's it's something that you know. She talked about it, which I find, because obviously, I we both are in a position where we don't have the lived experience of being in a fat body. And I thought she was incredibly gracious at the end. Because, she said, this is a film it's very important to bring your thin friends along to, because actually.

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Ela Law: it's important for them to be able to see through your eyes and through your lens. Yeah. So I don't know. What did you think about it, Ella? Yeah. Similarly, I think I think that's so. That's so true. What you just said. I think it's a film.

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Ela Law: That if you are in a larger body. And you watch the film. I think you probably feel seen because a lot of the things that are happening are resonating with you, and if you are in a smaller body, and you watch the film you are being encouraged to see and to understand. You know, what is it like to be in a fat body, and to have to deal with all of that all the time, because.

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Ela Law: you know, we're both in straight, sized bodies. We can hop through the world without care in the world. In theory, because no one discriminates against us, we can fit into seats at the doctor surgery. We can go to the theatre and not have to worry about. Oh, am I gonna fit into the seat? We can go to a shop and buy clothes. We can go into the supermarket and buy whatever the hell we want without someone telling us. Should you be eating that?

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You know it's it's that. And I think it is a really, really really important film for people who

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Ela Law: in smaller bodies to watch for for. Yes, you will. You will resonate, you will feel seen, you will feel like, yes, this is my, this is my community, but for in particular, for people in smaller bodies is to kind of, you know. Open your eyes to what you are doing, whether this is active or passively, how you are contributing to all of this, and I think that's what I found really powerful message in the film, and it wasn't so much

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Ela Law: so in your face. It was just like I'm sharing my story. I'm sharing 6 years of my life with you, the ups and downs, what was going on. But it's for you to take the message and to take that away and think about. You know your privilege and your actions and your language that you use, and all of the things that you do that contribute to me, going through life and navigating this.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. And it was a really interesting moment. Because Aubrey, when she was on stage

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Christine Chessman: she was saying, it's really ironic that we're doing this preview of this film in a cinema where seats we're having to squash ourselves into seats that do not fit our bodies. Do you? Do you know, I mean which it was just it was never more.

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Christine Chessman: It really smacked you in the face that was like, Wow. you know, we're we're sitting here watching it. But and I think from the point of that movie being released, the picture house where I saw it from my own, has stipulated that they are going to announce the kind of the size of the seating before every show

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Christine Chessman: range of seats. But just since the film and the impact of the film. But one moment that really stood out for me was when Aubrey said, about going into a cafe or a restaurant with a friend. I'm not just taking any seat, not just going, sitting in the booth that you have to squeeze into, but actually asking your friend, where would you like to sit

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Christine Chessman: just thinking for a second.

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Ela Law: And II don't know. There's certain moments that really may like that.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, I ha! I have that with. I don't know if you remember the the the bit where they were all having dinner together. II don't know if it was. I think it was Aubrey's birthday, or some someone and everything. They're all eating together. And there was this one auntie, or family friend, or someone going on and on and on about her diet and her weight, loss and everything.

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Ela Law: And I think that really stood out to me because it showed me how completely blind we can be to you know what we're saying and what effect that can have on other people.

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Ela Law: I mean, just just thinking about all of that. And she was in a smaller body. That sort of yes, added to that. And then you have someone like Aubrey sitting next to her, having to listen to all of that.

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Ela Law: and and you know she was so gracious she didn't make a fuss. She didn't call her up on it. She was just fun, and and I just felt so sad for her in that moment, because I thought, well, you have to put on a brave face with all of this shit being spouted at you from the side. And

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Ela Law: and yeah, you can't. You can't say anything, because, you know, then then you'll be the difficult one, or you'll be the one who always sort of stirs the pot, or someone who has a chip on their shoulder, or whatever, and I felt really quite sort of emotional about that scene.

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Christine Chessman: I mean it kind of it. It reminds me of some of the posts that we see on Instagram, which are.

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Christine Chessman: you know, and there is an audience for these posts, because we all do struggle with body image issues, etc. Self acceptance issues. But we do not struggle to navigate life in the same way. And but you know, posts that are like normalizing normal bodies. Oh, it's okay when you sit down to have a little role, and you know.

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Christine Chessman: point of bank. They're just there, whether I sit down. But this is just my body.

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Christine Chessman: I'm sorry that you know. That's oh, you can accept yourself, but only if you look like this when you sign and have a little role. And I think it's just having that

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Christine Chessman: wider lands when we post, when we talk about wit or body acceptance, etc., just

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Christine Chessman: just having a second to think about, not just people that might look like la us, or be in similar size bodies, stuff, but actually

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Christine Chessman: but I thought, and one thing that I really was struck by was her mom. Both her parents actually but her mom seemed to have a real

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Christine Chessman: self, a bit of self-awareness, or just really

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Ela Law: started to think about Hi. She might have spoken about her own body when Aubrey was little.

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Ela Law: What has he seen about that?

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Ela Law: Yeah, I thought I thought, I mean, although she wasn't the main focus of the film. I think it really showed a massive journey for her mum, that film, and how far her mum has actually come. I mean, obviously everyone has their own

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Ela Law: story. And our parents obviously have some impact on. You know our our relationship to food and our bodies. it's just never as documented as this. You could really see her development and her, the light bulb moments and the oh, maybe I should. And maybe I did. It was just so interesting to see. And one thing that I found very

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Ela Law: powerful is that she was there

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Ela Law: like physically there with Aubrey. So she had come on that journey like physically with Aubrey

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Ela Law: ha! Being part of the QA. Seeing what people had, and listening to what people had to say rather than like, Oh, yeah, that that's nothing to do with me. You do, you?

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Ela Law: And I will just sort of stay in the background. She's coming along, which shows me that she wants to learn. She wants to understand. And she wants to be part of that discussion.

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Ela Law: So yeah, I thought, I thought that was that was really quite interesting and and really lovely that she was there.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, she just seems so lovely. But yeah, III thought there was one moment as well that I talked to a client about that. She

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Christine Chessman: I think they asked her. I think she'd taken Aubrey to some, you know, slimming classes, or and she said, Did I think she was asked, did she ever expect Aubrey to change, or for her to look different, be different? And she said, No, she didn't, and

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Christine Chessman: if there was something really nice about that, that she just the acceptance, was there for her of her daughter that was like, Oh, we should lose weight, you know you should.

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Christine Chessman: She was just trying to understand how Aubrey felt and how you know her own actions had impacted Aubrey

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Ela Law: rather than serve. And I just I just thought that was a really nice moment. Her dad was an interesting character, and he talked about control with him, that he'd had issues with control.

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Christine Chessman: and her parents weren't together.

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Christine Chessman: but seem to be okay in the same room. But he there was. He seems a bit more. I don't know

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Christine Chessman: he

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Christine Chessman: what's the word

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Ela Law: distant from it, or just not as distant. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: not a self, not as aware of what was going on for Aubrey just kind of chatting about, but the moment where she was doing a book signing, and she was talking so eloquently

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Christine Chessman: about you know the thought phobia, what she is dealing with, what so many other people and fat bodies are dealing with, you know, when he land across and says, That's my daughter. Honestly, the whole cinema was just in tears. It was

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Christine Chessman: we, just because he was so proud of her. He was just so proud of

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Christine Chessman: what she has done for so many people.

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yeah. And I said, what was the one moment, stay like for you, and then we'll kind of segue from there.

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Ela Law: Oh, I don't know if I've got one particular one particular moment. I think it was just. It was just such a beautifully filmed film. It was just very artistic. It. I mean, Genie just did such an amazing job doing this for 6 years and putting it all together into something, that's all. I don't know. 90 min long, and I have I don't know how long. It was just

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Ela Law: a wonderfully sort of

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Ela Law: photographed kind of story. Yeah, very powerful imagery. I don't know I don't. I wouldn't say that I have one standout moment. Did you have something that oh, God! This is this is the moment that kind of stuck in my in my head.

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Christine Chessman: Well, I mean, I don't know. I keep coming back to her, dad. I think that moment stuck out for me because he was just so proud of her, and it was just. It was sort of right at the the end, after everything that she'd been through. It felt

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Christine Chessman: like a beautiful moment, but equally to you. I thought it was filmed so beautiful. So it it's such

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. It says hard to describe. I bought after the performance. I bought 3 sort of prints that have been done film, and they were just stunning, just absolutely stunning.

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Ela Law: So even from that perspective, just going from a visual perspective, just saying the film was absolutely worthwhile. And I think that was important to Jeannie to represent Aubrey in the most beautiful light. Which I thought was great. But yes, so I know my sound like moment. My sound like moment was when Aub start talking about her

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Christine Chessman: disorder, eating on her eating disorder.

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Christine Chessman: So this is something which I you know I get very passionate about. It is

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Christine Chessman: E eating disorders do not discriminate because you are in a fat body does not mean that you do not have an eating disorder such as anorexia etc. You know, they talk about a typical anorexia which I think needs to stop, because if somebody is displaying, you know, if somebody is restricting their food and has a really disorder relationship with food.

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Christine Chessman: They are going to be harming their bodies in the same way as somebody who is a more acceptable body or in a lower weight. And they're still gonna be depriving their organs of what they need. And it it it just really struck me that she wasn't able. She even spoke about the fact that she had a needing disorder. But what wasn't able to get help for it.

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Ela Law: Absolutely tragic, isn't it? That that is still not something that people, but people, are just not aware of the fact that someone in a larger body can be anorexic. It just doesn't. It doesn't compute because we have this sort of stereotype image in our heads. And yeah, I totally agree with you. I think that sort of atypical is

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is

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Ela Law: it sounds very dismissive.

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Christine Chessman: You? Oh, you're not doing that quite well enough given so I you know I have of experience of a client who has a a daughter who has been struggling and was told she's got atypical

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Ela Law: anorexia, and that just spurred the daughter on. It was like, Oh, well, I better get to actual. And it's it's

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Ela Law: exactly. It seems like it's being dismissed on them. The fact that she couldn't get help.

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Christine Chessman: And and she said, You know. People look at me, and they think

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Christine Chessman: I need to do the things they don't say.

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Christine Chessman: Maybe that I have done all the things, and that's why I am where I am. You know. People don't think like that, you know, genetically, we're also different on our bodies. Respond differently to what we put them through on a daily basis. I don't know. It just really struck me.

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Christine Chessman: That's it. There's such a judgement where there shouldn't be, you know, if you're anorexic in a smaller body. It's almost like more accepted, and it is a disgrace. You know it.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. It made me say.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, no, you're so right. It's just it's it's not right. I mean, it's literally prescribing

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Ela Law: eating disorder behaviors to people in larger bodies. And then, when they when they do it or do them, they get applauded rather than helped and seen as someone who's suffering from an eating disorder, I mean is

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Ela Law: absolutely

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Ela Law: shocking. Well, is it shocking for? Not probably not for us, because we we know the the status quo. But it is just absolutely yeah, sad and and tragic that that's happening. Still.

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that's in the in the film. There's one bit where you could see that Aubrey was still.

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Christine Chessman: you know, she was given certain foods, and she would. She was only eating a certain amount, and it was very clear to me there was still.

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Christine Chessman: and and she was very honest about it still, really has that tricky relationship with food I'm not sure I wanted to segue into. I don't know if that was nicely done. But we're both some certified and innovating counselors and

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as such.

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Christine Chessman: So intuitive eating can be a fantastic way of learning to repair your relationship with food. But for anybody listening who really doesn't know what it is.

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Christine Chessman: You know, I don't think we can talk about enough what it actually is, because it's been co-opted left, right and center by absolutely every celebrity out there and every diet out there. And oh, we're not diet. We! You can eat what you want. You can eat all your favorite foods. We're intuitive. No, you're not

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Ela Law: so what is intuitive eating? And if you could put it into a sentence or less into one sentence, now challenge accepted? So I always describe it as a framework that focuses on the emotional.

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Ela Law: physiological, and psychological aspects of our relationship with food. So in terms of, you know. Lots of people so think that it's all about eating everything.

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Ela Law: There's no no limits. You could just go, and, you know, knock yourself out. It's not. It's about tuning into your body and understanding the sort of the physiological sign, say, of hunger and fullness, of how certain foods make you feel. Then it covers the the thoughts that we have around foods. You know the belief system that we built over years, and the kind of narrative that we tell ourselves around food?

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Ela Law: and then the emotional side of it. You know how you know. What? What does all of this

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Ela Law: bring up for us emotionally. How do we feel about food? How do we feel about our bodies? What is the physiological sensation of that emotional kind of these emotions that come up. So it's really a very much broader thing that people make it out to be. So. It's not about eating when you're hungry and stopping when you're full, or eating everything without any limit.

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It's it's just that. It doesn't have any rules that you need to follow. It has guiding principles that you use to explore

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Ela Law: your own relationship with food. That's how I that's not a sentence, is it, Christine? That was more than a, because it is such a big thing. It's really difficult to kind of narrow it down, because there's so much that needs to be explained. There's so much nuance to it, and so much information really so

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Christine Chessman: with with them, Evelyn triply up. I love Alice and I'll Evelyn, I think they both. They compliment each other so so well, those are the the finders into to the meeting. But it's it is absolutely tuning in. But it's

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Christine Chessman: it's it. Everyone said once you looked at Instagram. So anybody that was talking about until the meeting had doughnuts all over the place, you know, it's just all about the donuts. So people just a lot of us the same. It's just about stuff in your face. And then they think so. Anybody I've spoken to about into the meeting thinks donuts, and we again.

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Christine Chessman: That's what they think. So they don't actually think this is a way of repairing your relationship to food. And it's it's a way of honoring your hunger, respecting your body, and and just building back trust with your body, and

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Christine Chessman: and and just finding the piece, and being able to eat what you want, certainly, but actually what your body needs and what feels good in your body, which

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Christine Chessman: it's the most important thing. And it's not following some Richard plan that's gonna tell you what you should be doing. It's trying to actually work out what your body needs in that moment, and what you need to function in the optimal way, and

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. I think they're both both of them are nutritionist dieticians and have a passion for food and have a passion for nutrition, and I think that piece is often left out.

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Christine Chessman: The reason it's not talked about initially is because generally we have so many rules around food

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Ela Law: to correct me. If I'm wrong here that we have to take a step back in order

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Ela Law: to be able to bring the nutrition piece back in. Does that? Yeah, does that find? Tracy? Yeah, you've explained that really nicely. Actually, it's it is about taking a step back because we can't see the full picture, because we're in the midst of it. And we don't know, you know, which of our rules actually serve us and which harm us.

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Ela Law: So it's about taking a step, and I often encourage my clients to take a physical step back when they feel a bit overwhelmed, or they they get into sort of an anxious food moment to literally take a step back

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Ela Law: and almost like taking yourself out of the picture. So you can observe.

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Ela Law: because I use a lot of mindfulness in in my work, and it's about

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Ela Law: observing without judgment. But when we're in the midst of it is really difficult, because we either go on autopilot and we go and binge, or we go on on this kind of negative thought spiral like, we're no good. We need to. We need to stop doing this. We have no willpower. There's there's things that happen that we react to. But if we take a step back, and sometimes the sort of physical step back is a kind of a circuit breaker in your brain.

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Ela Law: You give yourself that moment of pause before you react. So you give yourself the opportunity to respond. And I find that quite.

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Ela Law: quite powerful and quite helpful. Actually. So I like what you said about the the taking a step back and and and looking at you know what's actually going on.

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Christine Chessman: Well, for for me it's I find it really fascinating because I have 2 children and 2 daughters, both of whom are teenagers, one of whom is in recovery from anorexia, and one of whom is an intuitive either, and you know, if she's nearly 16, but

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Christine Chessman: and it it make brings me so much joy to see her eat. I cannot express to you the joy that I find in my my daughter just eating what she needs. And once so she was doing Gcse emails.

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Christine Chessman: And you know, she got up and she said, right? I need this. I need to make sure I'm not gonna be hungry. So I need all the food. And so I give her all the food, and then she's like, think I might need a bit more cause I just don't wanna be hungry. And that was exactly to me intuitive eating. She saw. I have to. I have to do this really long exam. I'm gonna be hungry. I need my energy. I need my brain to be fueled. I need.

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Ela Law: So I'm gonna give my body what it needs. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Actually, because that shows that she is very much aware

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Ela Law: of and can anticipate that she will be hungry, whereas a lot of the time we just ignore hunger for as long as we can like almost like a badge of honour.

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Ela Law: We're hungry. Yeah, not giving in, are we? We're not

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Ela Law: giving in to the evils of hunger. But she's

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Ela Law: able to kind of say, Okay, well, I'm sitting there really long exam. I know my body will need fuel, therefore I'm planning ahead, and lots of people think, Oh, well, if your meal plan that's not intuitive eating, or totally is totally part of it. Because you it's almost like you're honoring your hunger in anticipation. Right? And she's doing that which is wonderful.

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Christine Chessman: And it it's that badge of honor thing that that it pans me that you know it's like, oh, I didn't eat lunch. Look at me like what that should not be something to feel pride of, and it shouldn't be something that's upheld, which often is in the fitness industry. Wh. Where I am. It's often upheld.

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Ela Law: you know, and snacks food should just be what you know. It shouldn't be a thing that we talk about. It just should be something as part of our daily life that

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Christine Chessman:  you know I don't know. I find that badge of honor thing is something that I think will take a long time to work its way out of our cultural norms.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah, I see it. On a Friday. I do work in a cafe on a Friday as a volunteer like a community cafe, and we do the most amazing food and cakes and the number. I mean, if I got pound every time I heard someone say, Oh, no, I'll be good today. I'm not having that cake.

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Ela Law: I'd be one of you dots somewhere. Thank you very much. It's just ridiculous, this kind of narrative of good and bad. And

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Ela Law: this. Yeah, this badge of honor. If oh, II resisted the cake. Check me out. It's just so so harmful, because there's children around, they hear that they think, oh, well, if I eat that cake, am I bad? You know th this is when it starts. And kids internalize this. And they you might not even say it to them. But they might just hear you, or they might just see how you kinda look at yourself, or you might make a comment, or just

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Ela Law: kind of sound, and they pick up on that. So I think we really need to start looking at. You know the language we use around food and the narrative that we engage in, because I think that's where a lot of the damage is being done.

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Christine Chessman: 100% and I think I did a post recently about an influencer that I at followed temporarily, but he was saying, that these people that think these fitness influencers that think we can just eat our favorite foods

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Christine Chessman: and still be, you know, and still get results, or it's Bs, it's bullshit. Excuse my language. And I was like, sorry. She's like, you know, these people that think they can just eat their favorite fools and still get results and everything. I don't wanna be in a place that I can't eat my favorite food. It just struck me as that is so sad. And what? Why can't you eat your favorite food? I was kind of like, because you're trying to stay

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Christine Chessman: in, or in a particular body size. Why, this is about fitness. This is about, you know, enhancing our experience through life, you know, helping our joints help in our mobility, helping our heart health, making us feel stronger and more. It's what you know, and I'm like, God, you're just it. And that's placing a morality on not eating your favorite food, which is the thing I think I've heard for a long time.

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Ela Law: Yeah. And it also assumes that your favorite food is automatically one that is deemed to be the naughty stuff you know I'm using. But you know, I mean, it's just assuming that our favorite food is always gonna be something in inverted commas, unhealthy, or, you know, quote unquote, and the fattening, or whatever it is they wanna call it. But it's it's just

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Ela Law: it is. It's just such a damaging way of talking about food. And also it kind of shows you that. That restriction so much. Let's go. That that kind of restriction of those foods does actually lead to you wanting to eat those foods a lot. But if you make them part of your life, and you allow yourself to have them. Then

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Ela Law: it's almost like you take them or leave them, because it is

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Ela Law: not a thing, as you said earlier. It's it's not a big thing. You eat it, you enjoy it. And then you move on with your day.

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Ela Law: So yeah, yeah. And I think that's a very important point to bring up.

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Christine Chessman: It's it's a habituation, isn't it? So? I think I've mentioned this before. I have a thing about peanut butter. Love love it absolutely love it so. Never had it in the house, and then, you know, started eating and decided to have it in the house all the time, and now I kinda don't have it all the time. I have it sometimes because it's kind of boring to have it all the time.

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Christine Chessman: which is interesting, because

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Ela Law: yeah, go on.

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Christine Chessman: No, no, you go ahead. I was gonna ask. I was gonna swing it back to you. Do you have anything that you initially so I can't have that in house that is gonna eat at all.

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Ela Law: I have that with a lot of foods, because when I did my my masters in public health nutrition. I was a bit on the I didn't. I wouldn't say I was Orthorexic, but I was like preaching the you know, the the healthy, healthy diet and inverted commas kind of gospel. So II was very much like, Oh, if you don't buy it, you're not gonna eat it. Kind of school of thought which completely back pedal on, because it's nonsense, and it actually creates that

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Ela Law: that artificial sense of deprivation which means that you want that food more so. I have literally. I've got 2 children as well, and they have very different tastes, and very different snack habits. So I have a ton of different things in the house pretty much all the time. But one thing that always sticks out to me is nutella.

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Ela Law: If I have nutella in the house. I'll just literally have just Matella on toast all the time. And I actually had the same fear when my children were younger, that you know, if I have nutella, that's all they will want to eat. Now we've got a jar of nutella downstairs. Other brands are available. I just like to add, that has been sitting there half eaten because my kids go through phases. Well, I really like that. I'll have that on toast for bit.

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Ela Law: and then they move on to something else, and I notice that I do the same. I have phases where I eat a particular kind of crisp, and I have it, Le, literally, every lunchtime, and then I'm a bit over it, and then I move on to something else, and I might back to it later. But it's there if I want it.

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Ela Law: And this is something. I think, that people struggle with that that thought, that if they have it around them that they can actually sit in the same room with that food and not eat the whole lot. And it's one of the most powerful things that when I work with clients, and I ask them to do that this sort of habituation process, and they look at me like I'm completely balmy like. I can't possibly do that, Ella

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Ela Law: and then they do it. If they trust me enough, and the process enough, they do it, and the next session is like you will not believe I just found a half eaten Yorkie buy in my. I found a half eaten tub of Ben, and Jerry's completely forgot it was in the freezer and things like that. I find

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Ela Law: it's just like

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Ela Law: it's. It's such a powerful thing. When you can let go of that thought that you have this sort of no willpower, this kind of relationship with a particular food that is just so so bad.

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Ela Law: and how how it could get completely transformed by you, trusting that your body will know better, and that your body will not want to eat all of that, because it doesn't feel good.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. Yeah. And it's all about high food themes in our bodies. All about that, I think, and I talk. I'm talking a lot about Evelyn, but she was on. I listen to a recent podcast or it wasn't recent. It was re-released. I've spoken about this before the empty diet, podcast with 10 Harris from 10%

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where she literally, in the space of an hour.

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Christine Chessman: gets him from a space where he was very much food is good or bad. I'm trying not to eat carbs. I'm not having sugar to a place where, by the end of the episode, he wanted to work with her. I find I think it's just to me it was a game changer, because and she spoke about that, you know, if you've been underwater, and you know oh, you know, you kind of. Let's talk about the beach ball. We appreciate the water, and then when you let go, it pops up.

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Christine Chessman: you know. That's that's kind of what we're doing. If we're suppressing our hunger, suppressing and suppressing and suppressing. When we get a chance to eat our bodies like, please give me the food. Give me the food. Give me the food because we're so desperate. Physiologically, we need. We need the fuel, and our bodies don't know when they're gonna get fed again. So they are going. I'm gonna cling on to that.

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Christine Chessman: So we're messing with metabolism. We're doing, you know, if and I think that is the thing that's often left out when people talk about dieting restriction, all of that kind of stuff, or healthy lifestyle changes, or or anything like that, is that actually, the more we and deprive ourselves and restrict the more bodies, gonna grab onto anything that we can get and give us that

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Christine Chessman: that sort of binge type behavior because it and it's not because we're at fault. And I think that's the one thing. There is no blame. There is no fault. This is a natural biological, physiological reaction. And you know, and I think that people blame themselves so often.

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Ela Law: absolutely no blame because we live in a dieting culture where this is the norm, and

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Christine Chessman: you know we were just conditioned to it. But actually it is nothing to do with us. It's just our bodies trying to

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Ela Law: do the best they can. Isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is this is the issue, isn't it, that the the the thing that is

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Ela Law: or should be the norm, the thing that you know our bodies are actually working for us rather than against us that just gets warped into this. Where's all your fault because the diet industry is just so clever, you know they they can't admit that they're failing us.

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Ela Law: They can't admit that they're selling us a faulty product, you know, they don't want to lose face, so they blame us, or you didn't do it right.

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Ela Law: And that's it.

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Ela Law: But they don't really. There's no understanding that you know our bodies are doing what they're meant to do, and if you put your body through famine after famine, which you can just replace with the word diet. Then your body will think, Oh, okay, well, I know what to do. I will make sure that

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Ela Law: come the next famine. I will be prepared, and I will wind down my metabolism. I'll hold on to anything that I can get hold of, because, you know, there's there's been famine after famine, and I haven't been able to eat, so I need to make sure that I survive.

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Ela Law: Our bodies are looking out for us. Our bodies want us to be safe. This is something that I say over and over and over again. Our bodies want us to survive, and they want us to be safe. Our body is not working against us.

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Ela Law: and even if it might feel like that with illness, or whatever our bodies really trying to keep us alive, that's that's the whole, the whole purpose of our bodies to keep us alive, and they sometimes don't get it quite right, but with weight.

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Ela Law: The only thing they don't get right is in a social context where larger bodies are

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Ela Law: just not acceptable

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Ela Law: right? Other than that when we put on weight, our bodies doing exactly what it's meant to be doing. The only problem is that society doesn't see it as as something valuable.

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Ela Law: And that's gonna take a bit of time to change, isn't it? For beds? But you know

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you, me and the rest of the non diet world we are chipping away at it.

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Christine Chessman: So just I know that you're a bit tight for time today. So I'm Gonna end with Ella. Tell me your first of all your favorite food in the entire world and your favorite movement at the minute.

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Ela Law: That that is the hardest question.

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Ela Law: I don't, I? Hmm! Oh, God! Can I have the top 5 favorite food about it. It's more sort of a cuisine rather than a particular food. I love Pasta. I love sushi. I love thai food. I love Indian food like any kind of curry based thing. And II love veg.

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Ela Law: I know that's a problem and in any way, shape or form. Just chuck it in there, so

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Ela Law: I couldn't ever pinpoint one particular food. I because I because II go through phases where I like certain things, and I eat certain stuff. Oh, one thing to add to that is I don't know how to pronounce it. But, sriracha sauce do you ever have that? Oh, I love it. We've got whole big massive bottles, massive bottle. Have it on everything apart from my serial.

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It's just the most incredible flavor. So yeah, put that on the list. And my favorite movement. I've got 2

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Ela Law: at the moment I've recently got back into yoga, and I know it's a bit of a I don't know sort of a wellness thing, but I really do notice the difference in my difference in my body. I feel a lot looser. I've had back problems for years. It really works for me. I feel a lot stronger, and I've noticed that certain

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Ela Law: postures that I do I can get into a lot easier with crimes that feels incredible. And the other thing I do is an outdoor boot camp class, which I always pitied. The people who did that I always said, Oh, you poor thing, poofing in the rain! Do you really need to do that in the mud?

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Ela Law: But I love being outside. I don't like going into gyms or into spaces. So that that was what really

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Ela Law: called me. And it's a really lovely group of people we basically put the world to right in the 45 min session. So do you know what I do to our big camps awake? And the MoD. I don't love the MoD. I don't love the ring, but I love the people that come, and it's the most amazing experience, and like we always feel better afterwards. All of us together bring whatever

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Christine Chessman: going on for us. And then we all leave a little bit lighter, feeling a bit more. Yeah, it's okay.

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Christine Chessman: And I'm just gonna say, if you wanna work with our, I'm gonna put all of the details in the show notes, so please check it out. But lovely to have you, and I'm sure we're gonna have a part 3 absolutely, but lovely to have you on, Ella, and have a lovely rest of your day. You, too, thanks for having me.