Surfing, Satisfaction and Feeling the Difference. The One with Evelyn Tribole.

Ela and I are beyond excited to bring you this week's guest, the OG of Intuitive Eating herself, Evelyn. 

If you are new here or have never heard of Intuitive Eating and don't know what the fuss is all about, this is the episode for you.

I had the joy of interviewing Elyse Resch, the co-creator of Intuitive Eating a few months ago so go back and listen to this episode, which is a corker especially if you have teens who are struggling with body image.

Evelyn and Elyse's work has been such a big part of my own eating disorder recovery journey (Christine), and after finding peace around food and exercise, (always a work in progress) I am now bringing that knowledge and experience to my clients.❤️

Evelyn's energy is simply contagious and she is SO passionate about helping those of us who have struggled with body image or disordered eating, to reject the diet mentality and to break free from the constraints of diet culture, which is keeping us small and quiet. 
In this episode, Evelyn shows us that we can respect our bodies,  find satisfaction in food AND joy in movement.

*Evelyn Tribole, MS, RDN is the author of 10 books, including co-author of the best-selling Intuitive Eating.As an international speaker, Evelyn enjoys training health professionals on how to help their clients cultivate a healthy relationship with food, mind, and body through the process of Intuitive Eating. To date there are over 2,400 Certified Intuitive Eating Counselors in 60 countries.
The media often seeks Evelyn for her expertise, including a feature in the New York Times. She’s been on CNN, NBC’s Today Show, MSNBC, Fox News, USA Today,. The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, Vogue, Ten Percent Happier, and People magazine. Evelyn was the nutrition expert for Good Morning America, and a national spokesperson for the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics for six years. Evelyn qualified for the Olympic Trials in the first ever women’s marathon in 1984. Although she no longer competes, she is a passionate surfer and proud member of Girls Who Don’t Surf Good.

To connect with Evelyn you can find her on Instagram @evelyntribole or visit her website.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the find your strong. Podcast this week I've gone and done it. I've managed to get Evelyn Tripoli on the show. I've been talking to her assistant for quite some time, and I knew Evelyn had slots from April, so I was straight in there.



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Christine Chessman: and Evelyn and Elise are the co-creators, the ogs of intuitive eating.



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Christine Chessman: I had the joy of having a lease on couple of months ago, and I was determined to complete the package and get Evelyn onto



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Christine Chessman: Evelyn, I'll give you a little bit of background to Evelyn. She is the author of 10 books, including the co-author of intuitive eating, which is a mind, body, self care, eating, framework.



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Christine Chessman: which has now given rise to over 200 studies. So it used to be evidence inspired. And it's not evidence-based.



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Christine Chessman: And she's an international speaker. She enjoys training health professionals on how to help their clients.



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Christine Chessman: Create a healthy relationship to food mind in their body.



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Christine Chessman: And there are actually now I didn't know this. They're actually over 2,400 certified, intuitive eating counselors in 60 countries across the world. I am one of them. Ella is one of them.



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Christine Chessman: she's also been on Cnn



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Christine Chessman: Nbc's today show Fox News, U.S.A. Today, I'm in the Wall Street Journal, the Atlantic vogue and most poignantly for me. She was on a podcast called 10% happier.



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Christine Chessman: and I think it's called the anti-diet, the episodes with Dan Harris.



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Christine Chessman: and the episode. I always, when I have a new intuitive eating client. I direct them to this episode. It's like.



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Christine Chessman: what if you ever ask me what's intuitive eating? I will say, Go, listen to that episode



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Christine Chessman: in the space of an episode, a very skeptical Don Harris is interviewing this person that he's not aware of that he's just being given by his team.



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Christine Chessman: and you can hear the skepticism at the beginning, and he's not really that into it, but through the course of the conversation his mind shifts



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Christine Chessman: so he's I think he starts by, you know, not eating any sugar.



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Christine Chessman: absolutely no puddings, no sugar, very strict keeps a very sort of strict control on what he eats.




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Christine Chessman: and watch what he eats, and after talking to Evelyn a plight intuitive reading of what it is



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Christine Chessman: and the ethos behind it.



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Christine Chessman: Why, it works.



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Christine Chessman: You could see those shifts.



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Christine Chessman: And he himself then, after the episode, started to work with Evelyn



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Christine Chessman: and personally, and has done for, I think, 4 years now.



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Christine Chessman: and you know as an advocate for intuitive eating. It's absolutely incredible. But anyway, I could talk on and on. Evelyn is also a pro member



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Christine Chessman: of girls who don't surf good, which you know, we chat like quite a bit at the beginning. It's about finding that joy and movement. I'm not necessarily being good at what you're doing.



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Christine Chessman: I'm not chasing the calorie burn, but just actually exploring movement. And what your body can do. So we get into it today. It's a cracking conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it, so I'm gonna stop talking high about that and hand you over to the one. The only evaluation.

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Christine Chessman: Evelyn, welcome to the find. Your strong podcast Ella and I are over the moon to have you here.

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Evelyn Tribole: I'm thrilled to be here.

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Christine Chessman: We were just chatting earlier about, how are we gonna start the podcast. With Evelyn and I was in the sea today and the English Channel swimming which was very cold.

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Christine Chessman: but immediately we wanted to just touch on the surfing.

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Christine Chessman: So from I mean you. It's you're in a club. Is it a club called Girls who don't surf goods.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, I'm in. I'm in. So so it's a Facebook group called girls who don't surf good. Actually, they call it girls who can't surf. Good, but I like the word don't, so I don't like. I just change the name every time I say it. But then local is actually there's another group is Nash Inner. I think it's international Callini Kai. So Mahini, meaning woman Kai, meaning surf. And so I'm in the local La Chapter Orange County chapter. And then also, when I go to Honolulu, I've I surf some some women there, so I just surfing is my passion. I just love it.

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Christine Chessman: I have never, ever surfed. I've paddle boarded. Ella. Have you surfed.

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Ela Law: I've never surfed. I I paddle board regularly. I love doing that, but I I've never surfed no.

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Christine Chessman: Wow!

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Evelyn Tribole: Such a rush. Oh, my gosh! This the speed and the beauty! I just I I don't get enough of it.

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Christine Chessman: Whoa!

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Ela Law: Yeah, into it.

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Evelyn Tribole: You know it's interesting. So when Covid started, everything shut down, my gym, shut down my ping pong tournament stuff shut down, and I thought I need something. That is it kind of exciting. And so I would drive into San Diego and take surf lessons from a woman surf shop. I'd go there, spend the weekend.

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Evelyn Tribole: and I'd struggle, and then I went to Hawaii when they started to open up after Covid, and that's where I fell in love with it, because where I was going it was so much easier. You didn't get beat up by the waves. They call it the washing machine. When you get into all the waves and just all around. And it was fantastic. And then I came home from that trip, and a week later I was diagnosed with stage to breast cancer. And the reason I'm sharing that part

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Evelyn Tribole: is because, you know, I had to have chemotherapy and all the things, and I got into a very, very dark place. It was not good, and I told my psychologist, you know I'm not suicidal. I don't feel like living, and he said, you need some look forward to, and that was in October, and I was too tired to sit up and, too nauseated. Lay down, and I thought. You know what I'm gonna plan a trip to Hawaii for an entire month.

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Christine Chessman: Can't.

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Evelyn Tribole: Surf. I will, kayak, I will look at the ocean. And what ended up happening is it became my lifeline. Everything I did. It just kept visualizing, surfing, and.

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Christine Chessman: Wow!

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Evelyn Tribole: Long story short, after all the treatment. I was so weak that my brother in law, who surfs, rehabilitated me. He would carry my little surfboard. It's actually a big surfboard into the water so I could carry it. He would push me into the waves. And and and I think because of that relationship. And I and I did make it to Hawaii. And I did surf. It's just become the fact that I love it. But it's been my lifeline. It's just hmm. It's amazing. I highly recommend taking it up, giving it a try.

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Christine Chessman: That's just. It's just an amazing story, Evelyn, just that that kept you going through everything.

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Evelyn Tribole: Good it, really. And I thought, this is so bizarre. Here I am, and I'm planning this trip to Hawaii. I don't even know if I'll be able to serve. And so. But I was. I was flexible in my goals. I think that that helped. But

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Evelyn Tribole: and I love making little videos of it, putting music to it. So.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, yeah. And then, yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: In California. There's all kinds of places to serve, so.

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Christine Chessman: We have to. We'll have to come out and visit.

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Evelyn Tribole: You should absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: We were sort of talking about the aspect of joyful movement and.

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Evelyn Tribole: Isn't.

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Christine Chessman: You know you you've come from a background. Being a competitive Marathon runner and you know the you were in the Olympic trials in 1984, the 1st woman.

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Evelyn Tribole: Oh, no! The the 1st time they let women run that distance up until that time the longest distance was like a mile, and so in the United States we had a qualifying standard. If you met the standard you got to compete to try and be on the team, and I'll tell you I was so thrilled just to be on the team and to be part of history. And I'll tell you funny story. So when you run, you tend to get into a pace with someone else at the same time, and it makes it a little easier. And as I'm chatting up with this woman. We're running for miles

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Evelyn Tribole: and she goes. Are you politician? I said, No. Why do you ask this? Because you just waved everybody. And I said, You know I know this. As far as I'm gonna get, I'm not gonna make the Olympic team. I'm not negative. But my dis my time between the the American record holder was like a half an hour. There's no way I wanna enjoy every bit of it that I can. You know.

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Christine Chessman: Hi! And I.

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Evelyn Tribole: Did? I did? Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, I love that! But we we were wondering. Where does that competitive spirit go? And how do you reconcile that with a surfing club. That's kind of girls that don't surf good.

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Evelyn Tribole: I will tell you it's been so insightful. So I've been athletic all my life. Competed at the university level as well, and

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Evelyn Tribole: surfing is one of the hardest sports I've ever had. I've ever undertaken, and you can work hard and hard and hard, and because the ocean is different, the tide is different. It's humbling. And

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Evelyn Tribole: what I realized what I loved about that group, girls to don't surf good is it? Takes away the pressure in terms of be good when you're surfing. And honestly as an athlete. I always had this idea of you. Got to, you know. If you if you train well, you'll do well.

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Evelyn Tribole: and by removing that kind of expectation it's about fun. There's this saying, the the best surfer out there is the one having the most fun.

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Evelyn Tribole: And so it really helps with this idea. It's a theme in my life, and that is not being engaged in grind culture any longer. And unfortunately, it's like a cancer diagnosis where I can say no to things and not feel guilty where I have life balance, and they're serving the same thing. I mean. There are times I have days. I don't catch any waves, but it's still fun being out there. It's still fun out there trying. It's fun having the community, and in this particular group, I think, is almost

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Evelyn Tribole: 40,000 of us women.

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Christine Chessman: Means you can.

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Evelyn Tribole: You can ask the the silly questions you know about what to do under certain circumstances, or even the best sunscreen to use what to do with your hair. And just just all kinds of things. It's it's a beautiful community. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: That sounds amazing. We were saying. We're chatting that I'm the girl that doesn't dance good. And I was the girl that doesn't swim good. So.

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Ela Law: Thank you. Good for.

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Christine Chessman: Both. I've joined a contemporary dance class for beginners.

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Christine Chessman: and because and and I wanted to do something I couldn't do, and I don't do it well.

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Christine Chessman: but I really do enjoy it, and it is. It's a learning experience for me, cause it's not something that I'll ever be amazing at, but it's so. I don't have that sort of what better do I have to do better? It's just joy for me, and I think.

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Evelyn Tribole: You know, I I completely relate to that. That's what it is for me, and it's a part of it. You know. I'm lucky because

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Evelyn Tribole: I didn't come into this with a lot of baggage. I work with a lot of women who got teased or shamed, even as as elite athletes being shamed by their coaches in terms of their bodies or whatnot. But okay, this is a very weird story. So I I competed on the boys track team in high school because I didn't have a girls team, and every Friday we'd sit in a circle and we put our legs in a circle, and we compare who had the most anastomosis? Now don't I don't.

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Evelyn Tribole: I don't know why. I even knew what that was in high school, but who had the most collateral blood flow. That meant you were getting in shape. And I realized, I never. I haven't really talked about that. That's a great formative way we were looking at function not about the size of someone's bodies. But are you getting in shape enough where you can see your blood flow? So I've always been very proud of my vascularization.

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Ela Law: But.

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Christine Chessman: That is, that's a very interesting way to compare, isn't it?

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah. Yeah. And and it was back at a time when diet culture wasn't as nasty as it is now.

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Christine Chessman: You know.

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Evelyn Tribole: I keep thinking back about the cause. The Olympics are coming up in Paris in 2,012. During that Olympics

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Evelyn Tribole: women's bodies are being critiqued by sportscasters and coaches, I'm thinking. How dare you? These are women at their elite and their excellence. And you're you're critiquing their bodies. Get out of here.

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Christine Chessman: That's just. It's the. It's the seaweed swimming and the.

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Evelyn Tribole: It is, it really is.

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Christine Chessman: Breathe, isn't it.

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Christine Chessman: Ella? Did you? Wanna did you wanna ask a wee question?

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Ela Law: Yeah, sure. I'm gonna change tack a little bit, Evelyn.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, I'm.

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Ela Law: Really astounded that the intuitive eating framework is almost 30 years old. That's amazing.

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Evelyn Tribole: Isn't that wild? Yeah.

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Ela Law: It's amazing. And it's in its 4th edition in terms of the book. And it has had loads of updates and beautifully lots more research kind of supporting it, which is wonderful, and it's just so fantastic to hear.

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Ela Law: I was just wondering if you started it from scratch.

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Ela Law: What would you do differently? Would you do anything differently? Are you happy with how it evolved? Or would you feel like actually? No, I would start

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Ela Law: from a different point.

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Evelyn Tribole: Well, let me start by saying I'm happy that we're adaptive and we evolve. I think that's really really important cause. No matter where we start, we need to have room for for change and not be fixed and rigid into something, and if I was to start all over again, what I would have done differently. And what we're doing now is we'd hire content readers who are expert in their area of lived experience, you know, like someone with with a lived experience, living in a fat body, a transgender body, and and someone in, you know.

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Evelyn Tribole: and the black community, and so forth, because it gives us perspectives we otherwise would not have. So right now, we're working on updating the intuitive eating workbook, and we've added a whole big chapter on social justice, intuitive, intuitive eating through the lens of social justice. Because the truth is.

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Evelyn Tribole: you know, we can talk about body image, and respecting your body. But the truth is, if we didn't have a culture that was so dysfunctional and so toxic.

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Evelyn Tribole: we wouldn't be having such a difficult time respecting our own bodies. And we have to address that. The cultural menu that we we swim in is incredibly toxic, including our healthcare systems that focus

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Evelyn Tribole: on on on weight as an idea as as it being a representation of health in spite of research, showing. That's not the case. There's associations, but that's not causation. And so it's a big old mess, and I I think it helps because I've had people feel really bad or guilty. They'll say I get it. I'm better with my eating. I have ease with my eating.

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Evelyn Tribole: and I still hate my body. In fact, I had someone say, I think I'm failing intuitive eating. I'm like what and I someone. I worked up for quite some time. I said, I I'm now having this desire to lose weight. It makes you fail. I go. That's it's the culture we're living. And it's of course you're gonna get trigger doesn't mean that you're failing. It means that you are human. And it's when I find that keeps people to suck us the most is their perception about their

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Evelyn Tribole: their body. And when you've grown up in a family system that overvalues the body. And when you look at your family of origin, grandparents, aunts, uncles, I'm working with second and 3rd generation dieters. And that's a value that's been transmitted intergenerational. So of course, it's gonna be hard to let go of what a body should should look like and and so forth. It's I think it's part of the reason why, with things like surfing, or whatever

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Evelyn Tribole: thing that you gravitate toward, when you can have this thrill and notice how your body is functioning. It's a little easier, not easy, but to let that go. I it's funny. I just also had this really weird realization. My board got a significant gash from another surfboard. The fin punctured it like 6 inches, and I had to take it to get repaired.

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Evelyn Tribole: I was thinking, you know, what if I had a gash in my arm? My body would heal itself. Even if I had to have stitches, the body would heal itself without me doing anything but my surfboard. If I throw it in the corner, it's gonna still be injured. So it's amazing when you think about how our our bodies can really function, and because our bodies have been so objectified and treated in such a way, that is very

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Evelyn Tribole: unkind, very abusive, even it's hard to

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Evelyn Tribole: cultivate some of this appreciation for just being a human.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. Do you? Do you feel we're making progress in that respect? Do you feel like we're.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yes and no.

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Ela Law: Kyle.

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Evelyn Tribole: So here's where we're making pro. As you said, the research, I just went on to update the Re. I do this every time I speak I look at anything new. Oh, my God! 50 new studies! It's about 200. I don't know over this over 200 studies, maybe 250 now on intuitive eating, and it blew me away. It's just

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Evelyn Tribole: so that that to me is progress. The fact that we have over 2,500 health professionals in 60 countries that are certified in intuitive eating. And, as you know, that takes a lot of work and a lot of time that gives me incredible hope. But then I see things like the glp ones and the way they're being marketed

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Evelyn Tribole: it. It. It's it's really is upsetting because they're promoting malnutrition like, it's okay. We know, you know, from the new guidelines that came out from the International Limit Committee

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Evelyn Tribole: that relative energy deficiency syndrome. In other words, not having enough to eat, not necessarily eating disorder can cause, can harm almost every system in your body, your immune system, your bone, health, your cardiovascular health, and so on, and it affects performance.

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Evelyn Tribole: And then that's amplified. The problem is amplified in. If you're also eating a low carbohydrate diet. And so my thing is like, you know what a lot of the people I work with train like athletes. They might not be in the Olympics. They might not be competing for a university. But the kind of training they're doing in terms of the time is just like that. So why are we advocating under eating. When we look at the issue of atypical anorexia, that's basically representation of anti fat bias. It's anti.

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Evelyn Tribole: And it's anorexia nervosa with somebody in a fat body, and it's just as harmful, just as dangerous. So we've got all this research. And yet, on the other hand, some people are saying, it's okay to under eat. It's okay to eat 500 700 calories a day. If it means you're gonna lose weight.

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Evelyn Tribole: And, by the way, that's not even a guarantee either. So.

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Christine Chessman: Nice, you know. I I struggle with the term atypical anorexia.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: I really struggle with that? I I, my my daughter, is actually in recovery from anorexia and and I struggled as a team myself.

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Christine Chessman: I actually I had on that note. I had a I have a client at the moment, and she's had a long history of of anorexia herself, and she is now in recovery, and she wants to eat intuitively. So we're working in that together. But she wanted to ask you. So I said that I was having in the podcast. And she was so excited. And but she's really struggling with making peace, with food, giving herself unconditional permission. She is never binge. She is not eating enough in invert calories.

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Christine Chessman: but she cannot.

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Christine Chessman: The freedom giving herself freedom is something which is so alien to her, having, like.

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Christine Chessman: And having so rigid rules, and even in recovery, the meal plans that you're sent away with.

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Christine Chessman: It's like you. How do you? How do you then

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Christine Chessman: know what to eat? How do you know what's normal? How do you know? And it's something that you know if you're in, especially if you're hospitalized, etc, it's a very much, a a difficult process, and it's how would you approach. If a client came to you in a similar position, Evelyn.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah. So 1st of all, it's it's really understandable. We need to take a look at. Well, how long have you spent in your eating disorder, and the eating disorder usually begins 1st in the mind before it. Actually, you know, manifests into actual behavior. And for most people that I work with. And it's an area specialty of mine eating disorders. It's years, maybe they've been 10 years in the eating disorder, and they'll say, and how long have you worked on intuitive eating or make peace with food? Oh, 6 months. So 6 months versus 10 years!

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Evelyn Tribole: And the 10 years with all of the rules, it ends up, creating a profound level of disconnection and a pound profound level of distrust. And this idea of I have to macromanage every single thing I put in my body, and so, in doing so, you rob yourself with the experience to notice what your body would naturally do

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Evelyn Tribole: in a variety of settings, and when I often ask my patients with anorexia.

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Evelyn Tribole: I will ask them, you know. Do you feel.

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Evelyn Tribole: even though you haven't had a binge? But do you have a fear that you're one bite away from a binge. And often the answer is yes, and my response surprises that. And I'll say what's understandable like what? Well, you are not getting enough to eat, and you're at a cellular level. Your body knows it is literally starving, it's malnourished, and so it wants to pounce on the food. I think there's a part of you that feels that

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Evelyn Tribole: and it's normal. It's a it's a normal, compensatory mechanism for our survival. And so then the question is, how do we get through this? And so with someone with with

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Evelyn Tribole: anorexia. What what I'd like to work on 1st is, let's make sure you're having sufficiency, having an adequate amount of food meaning calories, basically.

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Evelyn Tribole: And we wanna prioritize that, that's 1st priority. Because if you're not getting enough to eat. Hunger and fullness can get really scary and intense. And then, once that is pretty consistent, then let's working on making peace with food. Let's talk about what are the obstacles for you in doing so so many times. There's fears there's fears that if I eat this kind of food. This is what's gonna happen to me if I eat this kind of food. This is so

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Evelyn Tribole: I like to really unpack that and look at what's true. And what's not true about this this fear. And many times it's coming from sensationalized studies, you know, in in the headline News.

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Evelyn Tribole: And then we look at the reality. And how is having this fear impacted your quality of life while you've had this eating disorder? What kind of life have you had? Basically? Have you been flourishing? If you look at social connectivity often happens around food in fact, I always thought. If I wanted to do a, podcast. I call up breaking bread, and I would go to people's houses with homemade bread, and we'd have a great conversation.

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Evelyn Tribole: But that's the example that that food is our connector. It's

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Evelyn Tribole: and you and you miss out on that when when we're not having ease with our eating, you might show up to an event. But you're not eating, and that has an impact with connection. So sometimes what I might do, there's several things I do. I might have them make a list of all the foods they're afraid of eating. There doesn't have to be a reason why I just curious what the foods are, and we can look at what's the least scariest out of all those foods, and we might start there

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Evelyn Tribole: so that we can start cultivating

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Evelyn Tribole: positive experience or their own evidence that see, I can eat this. And I'm really okay. I can eat this. And I'm really okay. And then we start working on the other foods.

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Evelyn Tribole: The other thing I do. This is different is, I. Look at payoffs, and that is what food on this list, if you were willing to eat, would give you more social pay off, in other words, that you would be able to go out and, let's say, eat pizza with your friends without anxiety. And so when I find when there's a secondary pay off like that. Besides, just going through the motions of eating a different food. It's like, Oh, it would really be nice to go have pizza with my friends and not be preoccupied.

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Evelyn Tribole: Occupied with that. It's in my body. And what I'm gonna do because it's in my body. And all these other kinds of things. And so the thing that I think it's important to recognize is, and we have anxiety about our food choices. We often are not present in our relationships. Our body is there, but our mind is somewhere else, and there's a profound level of self absorption. And I say that really carefully, not to be mean, but because you're constantly worrying about all these things that you're not connecting with other people in in meaningful ways, and.

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Evelyn Tribole: That's the thing that's so interesting in recovery. All these other things, these gifts that end up happening, the connections become deeper. I've had parents or partners say, Oh, my God! I got my my wife back, or my husband back.

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Evelyn Tribole: because they weren't there at at the meals. Couldn't name exactly what it was, but something was was off. So sometimes, looking at what would be the benefits of different types of foods.

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Evelyn Tribole: and then and then looking at, you know, and you you don't even have to eat through the alphabet to know that you can eat these foods. The idea is that it wouldn't cause you anxiety, and we're not saying you need to eat these foods every day at every meal, but it's if if you get got exposure to them. It also would be a big deal. One food does not make or break your health. You know, unless we're except like your peanut allergy, or, you know, select disease or something along those lines. So

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Evelyn Tribole: those are things I would be looking at. And you know, if they're continuing to stay stuck on that issue. Then I would consider. Well, maybe it'd be helpful to work with a dietician who's trained both in eating disorders and intuitive eating to help deal with some of the the fears, the constructs that that come up, and finding meaningful ways to break these down

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Evelyn Tribole: was that home.

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Christine Chessman: Fantastic. That's fantastic, though, for her, I think the overriding factor is that she's terrified of getting wet, because before her eating disorder

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Christine Chessman: she felt she was in a larger body and doesn't want to go back there. And I was really quite scared of that.

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Christine Chessman: So that's something that we've been trying to to work through. But obviously, as you say, you've had a need to sort of for many, many years, and we're we're 6 months into the work. So it's.

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Evelyn Tribole: Oh, is that right? Are you 6 months? Oh, what a coincidence! Oh, my gosh!

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Christine Chessman: When it's.

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Evelyn Tribole: That's classic. So one of the things I would also do in this case is ask, you know, what would you need in order to let go this attachment to weight, because this attachment to body size is usually what gets people in a needing disorder and sustains the eating disorder. And sometimes it's it's dealing with the grief involved. With that all the time spent, all the preoccupation

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Evelyn Tribole: what it might mean to be in a larger body, and people in larger bodies are not treated well in our society. We need to. We need to acknowledge that. And then, looking at, where can they find some community and support. So they don't feel

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Evelyn Tribole: like they're isolated going into into this.

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Evelyn Tribole: And you know I've had people have the perception that well, I don't wanna lose weight. So that's not really the issue. But they'll say, but I can't gain any weight. It's it's the same thing. The issue is weight suppression. Whether it's it's weight suppression to prevent weight, gain, or weight suppression, to prevent

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Evelyn Tribole: or to actually lose weight. And then the thing is kind of interesting. A a lot of people have the perception. They have a lot of control over this. But that's not the case, you know. That's why there's this misunderstanding that eating disorders have a look, but you can be in a large body and starving.

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Evelyn Tribole: And I've had people say, How can that be?

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Evelyn Tribole: Well, because our bodies are so smart we are wired for famine. Famine has existed ever since people been on this earth, and so it knows very well what it needs to do to survive. It'll slow down metabolism. Food will look more appealing. And all these other kinds of things that that happen. And this is why we need to be really working on the culture. We need to be working on policy because it's hard to be in recovery. If people aren't treated

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Evelyn Tribole: fairly or nicely. There that there are being abuse. Some people are seeking a smaller body, not because they wanna be model. Thin. It's like, I don't wanna be treated poorly on the airplane. I wanna go into store and know that the clothing is going to fit my body, and I get that. But it doesn't change the outcome data when we look at weight loss

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Evelyn Tribole: processes, and then especially eating disorders which has its own own trajectory of of harm and and and problems, and so forth.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law: Yeah, it's really, really interesting. And I think, something that you just touched on made me think of something relating to ultra processed foods

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Evelyn Tribole: And ha!

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Ela Law: Firstly, the kind of fear factor around them, but then also how they have been linked to weight gain, and how they have described as oh, it's not even real food, and it's just something that you over eat on, because they are designed to do that. I'd really love to hear what? What your stance is on that? Because the narrative in the Uk at the moment is absolutely shocking. It's just fear mongering and scare mongering, and it's.

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Evelyn Tribole: Exactly. Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I'm helpful.

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Evelyn Tribole: So there's a lot here, and it's here in the United States as well. So one of the things we'll start off really broad, and then we'll get specific and very nuanced. So there always seems to be

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Evelyn Tribole: a villain, you know, and when it comes to comes to food or and and so, and a Savior or salvation. So it used to be, eat extra low fat. It's gonna be amazing for your health and like, oh, no, if that's not true. Oh, let's cut up all the carbs all these things. And now the big villain is altered. Process foods. But here's the thing that's so interesting is one. There is not a an accepted scientific definition of what that is.

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Evelyn Tribole: And if you look at the caulter process foods, the biggest category is shocking. It's vegetarian and vegan foods. And yet I never hear those foods being disparaged in this conversation of alter process foods. And so it's really, I think disingenuous, and it's a lot of hypocrisy that wait a minute. It includes all these things, and this would include baby formula. And there are some babies that need to be fed. Baby formula, and, as they say, fed is best, and so we don't need to be adding heaps of

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Evelyn Tribole: guilt and shame in the United States. One of the issues around this is the populations that tend to eat altar process. Foods are the ones that are marginalized and living in in poverty because they don't have acts versus. They don't have enough money, and then they don't have access to grocery stores. And so now this is adding a whole other element. And maybe what part of this ultra process food argument is is, maybe it's a representation of living on the margins. And it's the margins and social determinants of health. That really is the issue.

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Evelyn Tribole: So I think it's a really big conversation. But what it also reminds me of is the moralization of food. And if you look at the history and and Christy Harrison does a great job of this, and so does Sabrina strings. Looking at the role of religiosity and morality and food. And this feels the same way like, well, obviously, you shouldn't be eating off their processed food if you know what you were doing. You know what I mean. It's so. It's so.

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Evelyn Tribole: i i i have a reaction to that. And you know, at the same time I'm not saying you have to eat all the processed foods to be an intuitive eater, but it's it's it's it's not this moral hierarchy, you know. So what if you wanna eat some some licorice? Maybe that gives you joy. Maybe that gives you satisfaction. Boom! You're done. But the fact, if you don't allow yourself to eat this. Then you eat all these other. I've had patience binging on things like.

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Evelyn Tribole: Oh, my God, peanut butter when they're on keto dried Mango, when they're on something else. In in other words, it shifts into in in into something. And so we need to look at what is the impact of all this anxiety on eating.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: And most of these studies and ultra process foods. They're not intervention studies. They are epidemiological studies, which are, as you know, association which is not causation. Well, what else did they control? For did they control for social determinants of health? Did they control for genetics? Did they control for sleep? Did they control for loneliness, which, by the way, is a huge issue, especially after Covid in in the United States. The Surgeon General has come out and said, it is a significant health risk factor, loneliness and isolation, and that that has value. Why can't we focus on that

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Evelyn Tribole: something that's not going to cause harm

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Evelyn Tribole: as a fear. Mongering around these kinds of foods is is really, you know, problematic. And and I would be really clear I'm not here to be the mouthpiece for any Food Company. There's certainly manufacturing processes that can be approved upon, and and so on. But I think it's a problem, and we're just trying to find a scapegoat like. Oh, that's the answer. That's why there's a problem. It's those foods just blame those foods. It's it's it's a very complex issue that's that's trying to be solved in a very simplistic way.

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Ela Law: Yeah, as per usual, finding the simplest solution to something, and and not actually

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Ela Law: seeing the complexity of it, and actually understanding that you know what you just said is is so true that the sort of the the way that they used as a scapegoat for all of the problems is is just very typical. We just need a new thing. Every.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, in in the year.

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Ela Law: We need some, you know.

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Evelyn Tribole: And I think about the opposite. How like green powders and certain kinds of things reify them. This is amazing. Well, guess what that would be ultra processed foods by those definitions, energy bars. And I.

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Ela Law: Kennedy.

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Evelyn Tribole: Bars conserve an important role as bridges to

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Evelyn Tribole: between meals and all these other kinds of things. So it's it's very nuanced. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: M.

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Ela Law: Yeah, bye.

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Christine Chessman: What was I gonna say? Yes, because I know our time is is fairly short today. Cause I think well, I could certainly talk for a long time. I don't know about you. I had another question from a client, Evelyn.

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Christine Chessman: So I'm

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Christine Chessman: I'm sort of in the joys of perry menopause at the moment, as are most of my clients. So we're kind of navig navigating those those fun years between Perry to post menopause, and we are being targeted

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Christine Chessman: by the messaging. You know how to lose your Meno belly, and you know how to use Hrt. And not gain weight and how to eat less, move more high to it is everywhere, and you know it's

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Christine Chessman: oh, and this is, I think, it's a second peak of body. Dissatisfaction after puberty is perry menopause, and it's a really hard time I've I've a lot of clients are starting to think about intuitive eating, but also that coinciding with Perry menopause, and they're just struggling because the messaging is coming so thick and fast. And I just.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: What your perspective on that was.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, you know, it's another example where our bodies are being policed, you know.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: So body dissatisfaction is high. Then I think it's also really high after having a baby another really big target. And what's missing is the conversation that bodies change. And when you're producing less estrogen, you know, the body's gonna want to make more fat to help produce more, more more estrogen. And you're not. You know

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Evelyn Tribole: the changes that happen in the body aren't because you're doing anything wrong. The body is working to survive. And and Ps. I'm in the post menopausal thing, and I've I've seen this.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: The the targeting and all all the aspects. And so the question is, what

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Evelyn Tribole: is happening in your life when this becomes your number one concern

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Evelyn Tribole: that

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Evelyn Tribole: you know. Are you? Are you really flourishing? If you're trying to fix something that's not broken, and it just it just kills me. This is kind of related, but kind of not it. Kind of is, I had somebody presenting a case, you know, they're talking about this patient. It was virtual, like a phone session. And they're presenting issues that they wanted to lose weight and they come to find out halfway through the session. They had no, they were homeless. They had, they were houseless, and they had food, insecurity. And yet they're number one.

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Christine Chessman: One concern.

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Evelyn Tribole: Was was weight loss. And I want to be really clear. I'm not blaming any individual for having this desire, because we are being hit on the head with it everywhere. And now with these new

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Evelyn Tribole: glp, one drugs, you know, the Wiggovi and the Olympic, and so on. You know Big Pharma is out there pushing hard on on this idea then. And and and it's kind of scary, because we're saying, Oh, yeah, we know. Wait. We we know diets don't work, so they're co-opting the language of anti diet, intuitive eating. And I say, and now just take our injectables for life because we don't take it for life. Then you know

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Evelyn Tribole: your weight's going to go back to where it was, and what it ends up doing is creates more of this body. Hierarchy increases weight cycling, which has its own set.

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Christine Chessman: Yep.

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Evelyn Tribole: Issues increases weight, stigma, which has its own set of health risks, including increased allostatic load which affects blood, sugar, regulation, inflammation. All these other kinds of things. So it's complicated.

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Christine Chessman: It's I mean, from an exercise perspective. It's complicated as well, because I I for a number of my clients, and I run boot camps as well.

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Christine Chessman: They. The message is Cardio Cardio, Cardio, Cardio, Cardio. We just need to keep running. Keep moving. Keep doing all the things, and and I keep sort of saying, well, actually, you know, strength training might be quite good at this stage in life when we're losing muscle mass, and.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Health. But it is yes. But will that help me lose weight? And it is the

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Christine Chessman: Oh!

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Christine Chessman: And actually, at this point in our life. We need to be nourishing our bodies, taking care of our bodies, not moving, more eating less. It's the the opposite of that. But it is.

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Christine Chessman: It's a really difficult spot for some women to be in who feel uncomfortable in their bodies. They're seeing all the messaging

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Christine Chessman: from the outside world to then go. No, I'm going to.

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Christine Chessman: I'm going to sit with it. I'm going to, you know, nourish my body and not go crazy with exercise. It's quite hard to walk the other path.

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Evelyn Tribole: It is. And and yet what I like to look at, what is the impact of staying on this path? What is the impact on your mental health, because usually that that suffers, there's more anxiety often depression

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Evelyn Tribole: in. In fact, at at this point it's also one of the most common points to also develop a eating disorder. It's not just. Industries are not just for the young. It can be in this place of this body change that really hasn't been normalized. And what's really interesting is when you start looking at the history of of medicine for women, especially specifically gynecological health.

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Evelyn Tribole: there's been a lot of great books written by Jennifer Gunther. There's another physician who wrote a book called, I think it's called Hysteria, who talks about the medical history of the patriarchy and the problems that has put foisted onto the women's body, including not even knowing how the woman's body works, and and so on. The fact that a lot of women's issues, they don't know the root cause of the problem like endometriosis.

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Evelyn Tribole: And we don't know what the root cause is because there hasn't been funding, because women's issues haven't been so important from that perspective. Then you can't have an effective treatment. You can treat the symptoms, but not the root

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Evelyn Tribole: cause. That's why.

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Christine Chessman: Think it is.

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Evelyn Tribole: We sit back and look at all these forces at play? Well, who's benefiting from our body? Dissatisfaction, you know capitalism. This is part of all this all kinds of stuff. And and let me also say, I think we have to acknowledge it can be very uncomfortable if your body suddenly changes, especially if you've been stable at a certain thing. And suddenly the clothes aren't fitting. I think we have to own that it's that's not to be under underestimated. And then the question is, okay, well, what do we do?

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Evelyn Tribole: You know? And and it's not the job of of you to fit the clothes. It's the job of the clothes to fit the body, you know. Would you consider

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Evelyn Tribole: buying a a, a, a, a, a a key, you know, like a piece of clothing. Maybe it's jeans, or maybe it's suit, or whatever it happens to be, just that fee fits comfortably on you that's not trickering in the United States. We have services where you can rent, call rent the runway, and there's them called Guinea B, where you can actually rent clothes for a monthly fee, they deliver them to your door, they pick them up.

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Evelyn Tribole: I know it's.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: I actually use it. I don't work for any of these companies. But when I was going through my cancer treatment, my body changed because they put you on a ton of steroids, and I thought, Damn my clothes don't fit. This is frustrating. But I want to do this with Grace. I've been beaten up enough. So I started running the clothes, and I love it so that's something to think about. Also, what do you need in order feel comfortable. That doesn't require making your body the project, or doesn't require making your body wrong.

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Ela Law: Yeah, on the on the sort of slightly positive spin I find that a lot of my clients who come to me in midlife are. Actually, they're in a place where they're so sick of dieting and being told what they should look like.

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Evelyn Tribole: There's.

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Ela Law: That there's still that weight, loss, wish part of them still wants that. But part of them. When I ask them, well, what's stopping you from from going there. They say I'm never, ever, ever, ever, gonna go back there.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Just don't want to be in that position anymore. I want to enjoy my life now. So on the side, whilst you know, we're being bombarded with all of

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Ela Law: these messages that we need to lose. The Meno Belly, or whatever it's called, is horrendous horrendous word for it, and to to to look a certain way, and to, you know, retain our youth forever more. I think there's a quite a significant proportion of people who are so sick of it. They just haven't quite worked out how to get out of that rat race and.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Ela Law: But very, very certain that they don't want to go back there, and when I ask them what's stopping you, they say, no, no, no, I'm never gonna go back there. I just wanna make that clear. But you know.

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Evelyn Tribole: But.

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Ela Law: But but on a positive note, you know, I think I think menopause can be incredibly empowering, because we're finally getting to a place where we feel confident and where we're like we're putting our foot down and saying no to it. No, I'm not.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, yeah. And so what all part of what this conversation has been about today is suffering. And actually, what I do like, I have to name the suffering that look at the impact is suffering. That's happening what it's doing to your time and your energy and all these kinds of things, and

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Evelyn Tribole: there's a path out of that suffering, you know, 1010 principles called intuitive eating, that you don't have to suffer anymore. And I find that that messaging. I I'm getting through to more people I used to start with. Dining is messes you up dying does this? And this and this causes all this harm. Wage, cycling increase missing.

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Evelyn Tribole: And sometimes people aren't ready to hear that message. But when you talk about the suffering and you can name it specifically, people don't want to have people to suffer, including themselves. They might relate to that. They'll hear. It might not be ready to make do anything about it, but they'll hear the message of that. And it's yeah. The suffering is. It's enough already.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. And I I've done some work with Bree campus. I'm not sure.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: She's fantastic, and I've learned so much from her just in terms of sitting with it, because these feelings are still going to come. They still come.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I get body dissatisfaction. And and you know, despite the fact that we're in straight, sized bodies, that still body image sort of still can impact you. But the idea of sitting with it and grieving the body that actually is not body. That is your

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Christine Chessman: is your place where you're happy or where. You're healthy, you know, and.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Accepting that is actually quite powerful. It seems quite.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know

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Christine Chessman: just rather than just rejecting it, and always thinking, no, I've got a change. I've got a change just going. No, this is this, is it. This is who I am. This is how I'm supposed to be. And it's okay.

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, exactly. That. It's empowering is really what that is.

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Christine Chessman: Is but yes, we are gonna try and finish on time. I'm really not very good at that, but we want to finish by living vicariously through you and telling us, can you tell us what the weather is like right now, Evelyn? Because in the Uk, in the Uk it is 14°C, which is something very low, and Fahrenheit.

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Evelyn Tribole: Child.

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Evelyn Tribole: it's like, well, I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, does it? Does it cause you to get? Do you have to wear a sweater. For example.

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Ela Law: Yes, yes, yes, we should be out in our T-shirts and shorts as June.

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Evelyn Tribole: Oh, my! Gosh!

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Ela Law: Soon as we're not.

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Evelyn Tribole: Well, in California we have what's called June bloom, and I'm looking at the temperature right now. It's actually not too bad. It's 70.

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Ela Law: So.

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Evelyn Tribole: Nice to warm our weather and the sun coming out, you know. I can tell you that the water temperature is 65 in the ocean. I always look at that just to see what what suit I'm gonna wear, because in the summer we can usually get away with wearing lighter wet suits. That's a workout just putting them on and and and taking them off. So.

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Christine Chessman: Would would you ever go in without a wetsuit?

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Evelyn Tribole: Yeah, if if the water is warm enough. Yeah, I don't know why I don't wear a wet suit so. But I always wear booties, because where I surf it tends to be rocks, and you know I don't want my feet to get hurt, and and and so on. So it just depends on what your tolerances to the cold is.

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Christine Chessman: I know. Well you have inspired us. I think we'll both try a bit of surfing Nyella.

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Ela Law: I'll come.

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Evelyn Tribole: That would be fantastic.

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Evelyn Tribole: Well, how are people.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, Evelyn, thank you. So so much for being so generous with your time today and answering those questions for us. So and we're gonna go back and listen to again and again, I think. But it's been an absolute joy to have you here, and everything.

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Evelyn Tribole: Thank you. I love talking about intuitive eating and hopefully helping other people out there who are suffering. We can end this suffering right now.

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Christine Chessman: 100%. But thanks again, we'll put everything in the show notes, and we we appreciate you very much.

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Evelyn Tribole: Thank you, thank you. Take care.

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Ela Law: So much.