Why Body Representation Matters, with Emily Williams from Every Body Outdoors

Wow, what a fantastic conversation with the fabulous Emily Williams - and our first to be released on YouTube (you can watch it here!)

Emily is the Director and Co-founder of Every Body Outdoors and loves the outdoors - at the moment mostly cycling and wild swimming, but also paddleboarding, canoeing, camping and exploring and anything else that looks like fun.
In her day job she works as a self-employed knitwear designer and technical editor (specialising in plus size grading of hand-knit patterns) and is a campaigner advocating for better active travel infrastructure in the highlands.

Emily shared with us how she has always loved outdoor activities and adventures and how she became an activist to lobby for size-inclusive clothing. She has been putting herself out there, representing how those in plus-size bodies can have the adventures that we usually only see straight-sized and thin folks go on.

Every Body Outdoors is building a community exclusively for people in larger bodies who want to explore outdoor activities. They review clothes and gear, and they run regional walks.

We also talked about the brilliant short film 'Capsized' that showed Emily and her friend Lisa on a canoe adventure in the Scottish Lochs. We chatted about their journey, how getting the right gear was so much more difficult and labour intensive for Emily than Lisa, and how the film is meant to show people that there is a place for every body outdoors.

Here are links to the trailer:
Watch the Trailer on Facebook
Watch the Trailer on Instagram

The film will be screened at Kendal Mountain Festival on the 22nd and 24th November 2024, and will go on tour afterwards - check out the dates and book your tickets!
Buy your tickets for the festival here.

Check Out the Tour

Follow Every Body Outdoors on social media
@every_body_outdoors

OR join their Facebook group (exclusively for plus size folk!):

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Ela Law: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the find. Your strong podcast. Today I'm flying solo, and I am so excited to speak to the incredible Emily Williams from everybody, everybody outdoors. I

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Ela Law: came across everybody outdoors when I read an article in the Guardian, and I went straight to their website and followed them on social media. Because I love everything they stand for. But I'm going to let Emily introduce herself and everybody outdoors to you herself. Hi, Emily, welcome.

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Francis: Hi! There! How are you?

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Ela Law: And I'm so excited to speak to you today.

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Francis: Likewise likewise. Yeah. So I am, Emily Williams. I'm based up in Inverness in the Highlands, so I'm

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Francis: very fortunate to have

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Francis: lots of access to lots of really amazing outdoor space. And I'm 1 of the co-founders of an organization called everybody Outdoors who are

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Francis: fighting for clothing and gear and representation for

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Francis: plus size, people and bodies in the outdoor space. So any sort of outdoor sports that walking or running or canoeing or cycling, just trying to work to break down the barriers that plus size people face in accessing all of those

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Francis: places.

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Ela Law: Fantastic, and I think that is a real lack of that, isn't there? I mean, I work in a space where I work with a lot of plus size. People who

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Ela Law: often find it really, really hard to find the right gear, the right clothes. And also there's there's a real lack of representation. So tell me a little bit about how you got into this.

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Francis: So we there are 5 of us who co-founded everybody outdoors. And we met on the Internet probably about 3 years ago now. So I think we were all separately ranting on Instagram or Facebook.

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Francis: Me. It was not being able to get a wetsuit. And Steph kind of brought us all together, we had this sort of phone call where we're like, we have to do something about this. And you know, I guess we'd all looked over at the States, and there's loads of groups over there like this, all bodies on bikes. And there's unlikely hikers. And we were like, well, there's nothing like that in the Uk. So we'll start an Instagram page.

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Francis: We started an Instagram page, and you know, within a day we'd hit like 1,000 followers.

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Ela Law: Wow! Alex!

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Francis: And the response was just absolutely incredible. So I think I mean, we had on a really, you know, the really the right time, when there was just a real need for that.

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Francis: And Alexa, it's just great. It's just going from there. So we've got.

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Francis: We do all sorts of things now.

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Ela Law: Tell me more. What do you do then?

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Francis: So I guess really, what we're interested in is I mean. So I came into it really motivated from the Kit point of view. You know, so I've always done outdoor stuff like my husband is really.

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Francis: you know, he's a fell runner and a cyclist, and I'm more into

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Francis: cycling and canoeing and swimming.

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Francis: So I've always had a network of friends who

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Francis: have accepted me, and and I've just always gone and done it as part of my life. It has been ever since I started University and joined, like the Expedition society in Bristol.

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Francis: And so I've never really

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Francis: questioned my place in the outdoors, because it's just an intrinsic part of how I live my life.

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Francis: But

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Francis: that's not how it is for a lot of people, and if I'm totally honest. I've never really engaged with.

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Francis: like the outdoor industry side of things. I've never felt that that

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Francis: speaks to me or caters to me, and you know, so I've not.

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Francis: I've always struggled

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Francis: to find Kit that works as well for me as the kit. I see my husband, who's like a you know a men's size, small like little ultra distance, Fell Runner.

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Francis: And I'm just like I just want to be warm and dry

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Francis: about and do things. So for me. My motivation was all about getting people to

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Francis: expand the size range of the kit that they were producing, and particularly the goods, Kit, because

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Francis: when you look at it, there's most brands go up to size 16. What a size 16 is obviously varies brand by brand, and that difference gets more crazy before

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Francis: the further up the size chart you go. It's honestly, it's like the wild West of random sizing. By the time you get to a size 24

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Francis: But

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Francis: what you notice is none of it's the good kit, you know. So everybody, you know a lot of the, you know. So 3 years ago a lot of companies were making one budget waterproof in a size 18 or 20, but not all their range. I wanted

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Francis: a really lightweight, packable waterproof coat for bike packing in Scotland.

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Francis: but I still don't have one

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Francis: got closer to that goal than I was before, but I still don't really have the one that I want because it's not available. So so for me, it was about like, what I want is really good quality performance, Kit, so that I can do the adventures that I want to do

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Francis: because it's really limiting, you know, if you especially if you live in Scotland and you want to go bike packing. I have

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Francis: only ever really been able to do that

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Francis: at the last minute, because I either

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Francis: need to put panniers on my bike and carry more, Kit, because it's bigger and it's heavier, or I just need to plan it when I know the weather is going to be reasonable. And I'm unlikely to get really wet and therefore really cold. So

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Francis: you know, I find that it limits what I plan to do. And then, obviously, if you leave things to the last minute, just less less stuff happens because everybody's busy and

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Francis: your son's got a birthday party that he has to go to and just end up, you know, staying at home instead.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Francis: So. So that was my. And then I guess.

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Francis: since I've been involved in it, I've got really, really passionate about

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Francis: the power of representation, and

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Francis: just how important it is for people to see

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Francis: bodies like theirs moving and doing stuff in the outdoors, and

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Francis: I've become acutely aware of how little of that there is like. It's just

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Francis: once you start looking. It's mind blowing how

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Francis: how rarely you see

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Francis: a plus size person anywhere in the outdoors, like magazines, films, media, anything.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I mean, the media is, there's so little representation of plus size bodies full stop in any in any way, shape or form. There is just not enough of, you know, different sized bodies out there. But yeah, I mean with, in terms of the outdoor activities that you do. It sounds like it can be incredibly limiting. If you haven't got the kit, it can be dangerous to go out into the loss and not have.

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Francis: So.

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Ela Law: Waterproof, warm clothes that you need.

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Francis: You know, so that you know the basic fundamental garment for accessing the outdoors is a decent waterproof coat, and that I view that as a safety

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Francis: requirements, because.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Francis: You know.

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Francis: especially if you're out in the hills and it start, the weather turns and it's wet, and you get cold. That can be really, really dangerous, and I do often.

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Francis: you know, you can read these reports from mountain rescue about how you know they've helped someone down up the hill, and there'll be a sort of comment about how they weren't properly equipped, and in the back of my head is.

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Francis: I wonder if they're plus size, because if they're plus size, there's probably a very good reason why they're under equipped, because I have done plenty of what we like to call business casual hiking in my time.

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Francis: you know. You go to Marks and Spencer's or another, and you buy yourself a wool jumper, and like some leggings that look like they're quick drying, and you just cobble together what you can. That's in your size. If you can't buy the performance clothes that you really want, and and there's other things.

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Francis: you know. It starts off me with the waterproof, which is the basic. But if you want to do water based activities and you can't get a Pfd so personal flitation device that.

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Francis: Well, you want to go climbing. You need to have a harness that fits so

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Francis: I can't currently fit into the largest

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Francis: harness on the market.

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Francis: which means, unless I go somewhere, that has

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Francis: sort of

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Francis: specialist, Kit. And

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Francis: because for that I'm unlikely to be able to go climbing. So it does really limit

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Francis: people's options and their ambitions.

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Ela Law: Yeah. So they basically have to stop before they even get started with the whole

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Ela Law: even just thinking about it. You know, there's just no.

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Ela Law: for a lot of people, I would imagine, because of the lack of representation, and because of the

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Ela Law: the worry about finding the right kit. I would imagine it puts people off before they even kind of form the idea in their head, like, oh, I'd really like to do that because it's just not accessible. It's just not available.

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Francis: And then, you know.

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Francis: I mean, there are. I'm I'm really happy to say that there are.

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Francis: Much better options available in the Uk now than there were 3 years ago when we started, so.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Francis: There is definitely

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Francis: a willingness from parts of the industry to engage and to improve things. And

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Francis: we're not yeah, that we're not there yet.

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Francis: but it is an improvement from a very low baseline, but would be hard to not improve if I'm being totally honest.

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Francis: but yeah, I mean, it's that double. But the the options that there are are overwhelmingly online. And so if you if you walk into it, you think

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Francis: you know you've plucked up all of your courage, and you think I'd really like to go up a hill.

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Francis: and I need a waterproof coat, and you go into any of the outdoor shops.

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Francis: you will probably find that there's nothing above a size 1816 to 18.

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Francis: like 1. 1 of the organizations. Part of Cotswold outdoors. Now does have, I think, 20 stores across the country which have

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Francis: a selection of plus size kit. And they are working, you know, really, proactively to expand that, but that's new in the last 3 years. So at the point where we started this, I don't think I'd been into an outdoor shop for about 15 years, because I knew that as somebody who's a size 20 that there would be nothing in there that I could buy. So I just didn't go.

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Ela Law: So you didn't go right.

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Francis: So then you've got to have

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Francis: the knowledge

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Francis: to be able to go on the Internet and really search for those

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Francis: activities. So the barrier. That initial barrier to starting is so much higher.

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Ela Law: It really is so in terms of your advocacy and your work with different brands. Have you found that some are completely shutting down on any of those suggestions that you might have, or on any of the sort of requests to be more size inclusive? Or are they generally open to it, but are actually not pulling their finger out. Or what's your what's your experience with with them?

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Francis: I would say it's mixed. So

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Francis: I guess the 1st thing to acknowledge is that expanding your size range in a thoughtful and meaningful way

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Francis: is a massive investment. So it's a massive cost.

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Francis: And it makes ordering more complex. And it takes a lot of time like, I mean, it's not unusual for that process of

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Francis: having the idea that you would like to, you know, make one size larger to actually producing it and getting in a country to be 2 years long, and I think that's

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Francis: probably harder, since you know the pandemic than it was beforehand, because I don't think supply chains are still quite where they used to be. So

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Francis: it is. It is an investment, and it is a lot of effort. And we really recognize that, you know, and it's so. We have always said that we would engage with anybody who is taking meaningful steps along that journey.

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Francis: you know. Yes, it sometimes is a little bit uncomfortable. Yay, look at this brand. They're doing a thing in a size 20 when you know that you've got people up to a size 30 in your community. But unless you can support people along that way and shout out where they are doing things while going, yeah, this is not really where we want to finish. But it's a good start, right? It's a really good start.

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Francis: You know, different brands are doing things in really different ways, and I think that's what we need. There is no one

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Francis: right way to do it. It's

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Francis: just encouraging people to think about. Okay. So we're making a decision about expanding our sizes

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Francis: and how we do that is always going to exclude somebody. But let's be conscious about that decision and think about

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Francis: who we're including and who we're excluding.

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Francis: So, for example, alpkit

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Francis: I don't think there's quite finished yet, but they're aiming to produce their

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Francis: whole range in a size 20.

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Francis: Which is pretty groundbreaking like. I don't think there's

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Francis: any other brand I can think of that's aiming to do their whole range in a

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Francis: side, whereas.

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Francis: like, for example, Rab, have partnered with Cotswold outdoors to produce the plus size range. And so they've chosen, I think, 7 or 8 key items that are available up to a size 24. So

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Francis: you know, everybody's going to make a different choice. None of them are wrong. We just need more people to join the party.

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Francis: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Absolutely. And and do you do you research

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Ela Law: Kit, as in this is really good quality stuff. And I would like that in my size. Thank you very much, and then approach the companies. Or how do you go about it? Because there must be some really good outdoor clothing and kit makers that you think. Actually, these these are the guys that I want on my side. These are the guys I want to produce things that I can.

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Francis: Actually where we die.

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Francis: we we do a mixture of both. So we have brands that reach out to us to say.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Francis: You know, we're beginning to do a piece of research about what the plus size market might look like. Would you be able to

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Francis: contribute to that.

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Francis: we spend a lot of time. So we have a really really active Facebook group, which is only for plus size people, because

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Francis: we want that to be an app, you know. Want that to be an atmosphere where anybody can ask any question without having

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Francis: what's usually a very, very well meaning, thin person. Give them an answer that's just really spiriting.

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Francis: Misunderstood, you know. Just don't have that lived. Experience.

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Francis: And you see a lot of people asking for recommendations in there about, you know who's got this sports, bras, wetsuits, waterproof coats.

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Francis: Leggings, walking trout, whatever it is. And so

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Francis: we I keep a really close eye on that, and I try and follow up with any brands that I'm not aware of

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Francis: to try. And, you know, get Kit to test and review. Because.

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Francis: you know, one of our really important functions is actually

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Francis: testing and reviewing the kit that is available and trying to spread the word because

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Francis: they are

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Francis: a lot of them small.

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Francis: maybe direct to customer businesses that maybe just don't have the reach that the bigger companies do.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah.

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Francis: And sometimes

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Francis: I would not have much luck going cold to a company going. Do you want to? You planning to increase your price, range.

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Ela Law: So.

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Francis: But we we you know, we are working with a lot, you know, in conversation with a lot of brands. So that is definitely and it.

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Francis: But you know, I think, that the partnership with Cotswold outdoors as a retailer

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Francis: has also been, you know, because one of the things that we recognize from from

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Francis: brands.

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Francis: Is that? Well, it's all very well making this stuff, but if the retailers don't stock it.

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Francis: Then that's also a nonstarter. So having a retailer on board who's really proactive about that has been really, really

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Francis: useful.

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Francis: And then that's really borne out with the partnership. They've come up with. Rab.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: yeah, yeah, I think it's great to have those big names on board because everybody knows them. But I really like the idea of working with the smaller companies where you can actually really really make a difference, probably a bit more quickly, right? Because the big ones there's so much red tape that you have to get through, and so many.

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Francis: Yeah. And you know, there's a balance. So I think with the big big brands there is more.

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Francis: They're a little bit less nimble, but they've possibly got more money, and they've certainly got

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Francis: bigger minimum orders. So you know, there's so many layers to it. I didn't know about when I started. But you know.

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Francis: minimum orders and sizes, minimum number of sizes. So I mean, if you do more sizes, your minimum order has to be bigger. And if you're a small company, you've got to finance that So

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Francis: you know, it is a real mixed bag. But it's lovely when somebody recommends something that you didn't know about. And you can go. I mean, I spend a lot of time on the Internet looking at outdoor kit. So finding somebody new that's doing something exciting is always like one of those really like happy moments.

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Ela Law: Oh, I bet I bet I get that a lot. I work for body image fitness up in Newcastle. Which isn't an outdoor activity. Specific platform. But it is a size inclusive

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Ela Law: fitness platform where there's often questions about. Well, where can I buy leggings in a size 30? Where can I get a sports? Bra, where can I buy those things? And it's really interesting to hear? You know, the experience people had trying things and exploring and experimenting. But, as you said earlier, a lot of it is online. A lot of it means that you have to do

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Ela Law: a real long research to find the thing try on. It doesn't fit. It's probably not the right shape, whereas if you're in a straight size you go into a shop, you try 3 things on one of them fits you. You leave the shop and you're done. It just seems that there's there's just so much more effort that you need to put in to get what you need.

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Francis: And I think that

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Francis: the upside of that for brands is like.

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Francis: I don't think they understand the level of brand loyalty they can win from.

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Ela Law: What size, name.

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Francis: But making something good. Yeah. You know, there's companies

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Francis: that I bought something from, and you know I will literally go back and buy their new stock when it comes out. Because

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Francis: if you look at an out, your average outdoor retail website

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Francis: you might have

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Francis: 150 choices of coats in size. 12, and you might have like

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Francis: 5 in size, 18, and none in size. 22. So you don't have to do very much to be the stand out like, especially once you get above a size 20. The competition is really thin on the ground.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: well.

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Francis: But you

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Francis: have to make a meaningful attempt to engage with plus size people to tell them that you're making to make it easy for them to find, you know.

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Francis: there's nothing where, you know. I have had conversations with people, and they're like, Oh, well, we tried making a size 18 jacket, but it didn't sell.

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Francis: And then you dig into that a little bit deeper and you discover that you go on their website and you can't filter their website by size. So for a plus size person to find that coat, they've got to click on all the coats and look at all, and then click on sizes to find out which size. So you've got to do a lot of searching through that website

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Francis: to even find that one option. Whereas in reality, what's gonna happen is you click on the 1st coat, you get a size 16 and you stop looking. Yeah, you look down their social media feed. There's not a single photo of anybody who's bigger than a size 10.

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Francis: And then

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Francis: like.

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Francis: it's like, Well, how are you going to sell it? You do. They probably also didn't stock it in like physical shops.

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Ela Law: So.

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Francis: It's like it's doomed to fail.

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Francis: Unless you go to the places where plus size people are, and tell them that you're making Kit.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. And is that something that you also kind of talk about when you approach

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Ela Law: different brands as in? It's great. If you're making that coat for me. However, if you don't show me in that coat on your socials, on your website in adverts, then.

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Francis: Always. We always say that one of the biggest impacts a brand can have for the least amount of investment is simply to photograph their existing stock in the largest size, on a model.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Francis: if you go up to a size 16. And suddenly, half of your photos on your website of people who are size 16, that is a massive, massive transformation.

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Francis: And

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Francis: is not nearly the investment that you know, bringing a whole new size range to market is.

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Francis: And maybe you're even really brave when you put it in an advert.

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Ela Law: Well, wouldn't that be lovely? But yeah, that.

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Francis: It's about that thing like really, consciously. Just think about who are your influences? Who are you supporting.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Francis: Find some people who are at the upper end of your range because they're out there. There are people of all sizes doing really amazing things. So go and find them

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Francis: and

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Francis: publicize it.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Francis: Show your kit on people of different sizes. Yeah, you know

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Francis: that if there were photos of people in size 16 all over the place.

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Francis: I would be more likely to buy it, because I'm just like if you show photos, especially photos of people enjoying themselves outside looking happy. Then yeah, it's marketing gold.

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Ela Law: Absolutely. And do you know what I think? That should be a sort of a standard thing for people to adopt to make that.

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Ela Law: you know, if you if you go onto a website and you click on clothes to have a range of sizes, not just start with the size 10, and everything is in size 10. And then you have to check the sizes. Just go with the with the larger sizing on the photos. And then people, can. You know, people in smaller bodies can do the same right? They can click on it and see if it's available in a size 10.

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Francis: The ones that I really like are where

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Francis: you click on. Say, you know, say, you got some trousers, and you may have got 3 different models where.

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Ela Law: That's true.

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Francis: And it will tell you this person I don't know. I think the the example I was used is a Swedish company called Astrid wild.

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Francis: You do this really, really? Well, and

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Francis: so they'll have 2 or 3 models for each item of clothing they sell. They tell you what size. The model is wearing. Maybe their basic measurements. You know, they're sort of bust hips, height, and the inside leg often as well.

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Ela Law: Israel.

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Francis: Important, but then they also publish all of the actual sizes of their clothing. So

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Francis: they don't just give you a detailed size chart, so that you can measure yourself and go. Yeah, I would fit this.

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Francis: They also give you the measurements of the actual clothes. If so, if that's a non stretch item, that's really, really important.

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Francis: So, for example, if you're buying a waterproof coat.

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Francis: Overwhelmingly.

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Francis: really, really, overwhelmingly. Those are designed for people who have 5 cm or 2 inches difference between their bust and their hip measurement.

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Ela Law: But.

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Francis: I know that I've got a 10 inch difference between.

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Francis: So automatically, I'm having to pick a size

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Francis: based on my hip measurement, which is going to be too big around the top.

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Francis: But if you tell me

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Francis: actually how big that

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Francis: is, then.

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Francis: I can make a much more informed choice, because there will be a certain amount of ease or extra fabric

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Francis: factored into them, you know, because you need to have some space so that it all moves around you. So

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Francis: telling people the having accurate size charts, and telling people the size of the garments, especially if they're non-stretch, is really really valuable because it just simplify, you know, simplifies that process of buying online

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Francis: which, as a plus size person, you are basically forced to do.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, that's such a good idea. Actually, such a good point. It kind of leads me on to something that I wanted to ask you, and that hopefully you can share a little bit about. I watched. I was very privileged to have a little sneaky preview of the wonderful short film that you made, or you had made about a little trek that you and a friend of yours went on, and the

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Ela Law: the thing that kind of led me to think about. It is something that really stood out to me in the film where

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Ela Law: you, your friend, who's in a smaller body, went into a shop, looked at everything, picked what she liked.

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Ela Law: bought it, and left the shop. And then there was a scene of you sitting on the computer, starting the research. Where can I get my kit?

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Ela Law: So.

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Francis: This is my epic search for a pair of dry trousers.

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Ela Law: Oh, my! Gosh!

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Francis: So for context, people who don't know dry trousers are like.

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Francis: it's a pair of trousers that are dry. So they have integrated socks that are waterproof, so that you can paddle to your heart's content in as many doggy or wet place as possible without getting trench foot, because you're doing it for 4 days.

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Francis: So so, yeah. So the trip that I went on was across it was across the middle of Lewis, which is in the outer Hebrides. And you know, as I said before, we were making a film, and it felt really short notice. We had 6 weeks to plan it, and we filmed it last September.

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Francis: and

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Francis: but that meant that we had no idea what the weather was going to be like when we were there. So like, I said, contrary to my usual approach of doing these things, sort of at the last minute.

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Francis: When the weather's okay.

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Francis: I was like, Well, I have to. I have to go and do this, whatever.

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Francis: Emily, why did you say yes to that?

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Ela Law: I know.

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Francis: What have you got yourself into, you Muffet?

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Francis: So yeah, I mean. And and again, that process for me involves Googling.

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Francis: Looking at like, I say, a lot of

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Francis: looking at size charts like, what does

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Francis: extra extra large mean for this manufacturer? Because it's different for the other manufacturer, and maybe one of them will fit me. Won't be surprised if they didn't.

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Francis: you know I am. I guess.

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Francis: I've always had a big bum and generous thighs. So so my real

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Francis: pinch point for fitting trousers is always

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Francis: do. I have enough movement around top of my head. And eventually I did a bit of online research. I started looking for custom models. I asked in our Facebook group. And eventually that led me to a company called Read Chill Cheetah, who are quite frankly amazing. I was really.

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Francis: that was a really positive experience, a lovely interaction with them when I was buying.

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Francis: buying my trousers, so they were totally custom sized for me.

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Ela Law: So right.

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Francis: I've got quite short legs. So it's actually really exciting to have a pair of short dresses.

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Francis: But and anyway, there's an extra charge for that. But it's not. It's not astronomical

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Francis: compared to some of the other ones.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Francis: Custom. Dry suit, like a lot of people have dry suits. Custom made, I think, because the whole

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Francis: body, length, leg, length, size, thing, it's not obviously related.

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Francis: you know us shorter people.

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Francis: Aware that, you know, just because I'm a size 22 doesn't mean that I'm like 6 foot 2. I'm actually still only 5 foot 3.

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Francis: Yeah, so it but again, that the amount of research. So I have to

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Francis: research had to get my husband to take like a really extensive list of measurements.

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Francis: It takes 3 weeks to arrive which I was really pleased about. I was a little bit worried that getting something custom made in that 6 week window wasn't going to work out.

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Francis: But they worked really well, and I was very happy.

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Ela Law: Brilliant. So tell us a little bit about that trip. What did you do? How long were you out for? What did you actually do.

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Francis: Say.

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Francis: yeah, I guess the genesis of the trip. So I have been talking about this trip with my friend Lisa.

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Francis: Say in a quite abstract way as in. I've had this idea that would be really fun. And she'll go. Yeah, that'd be really fun. Maybe we should do it one day, and then, you know, every year or 2 we would kind of circle back around to this conversation, and she used to live in Inverness. And then she moved away. And you know we've got children so like we just

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Francis: never managed to get it together to have the same week off to go and do it. And so

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Francis: when I was chatting to Roxanna about making the film, I was like, I really, I have to phone Lisa like, there's no way I can do this without Lisa, and bless her! She spent. I spent the whole of that 6 weeks

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Francis: sorting out kit, fitting my boat like investigating canoe techniques and trying to figure out how we would actually do it. And Lisa's an anaesthetist and spent the whole 6 weeks rearranging her rotor and planning childcare.

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Ela Law: But.

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Francis: That's the reality.

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Francis: Of going off on an adventure when you're a working parent, I mean, I'm pretty fortunate. I have a much more flexible

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Francis: you know my my son's older. I don't need to be here all the time. My husband works from home, and it's much easier than being in.

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Francis: I think

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Francis: I've cycled past that quite. I've done the Hebridean cycle route so.

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Francis: The end of the Hebrides. You cycle past. And you look down over this

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Francis: tapestry of loss. And it's just it's like 50% loch and 50% bulb.

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Francis: And it just I don't know why. To me it seems really fascinating. And I, you know, just always had

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Francis: wondered what it would be like going through it rather than like cycling past it or driving past it on the road. And then I was looking at a map, and I was like, well, there are a lot of lofts, and they've got little streams that connect them, and

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Francis: you're actually walking would be a complete pain.

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Francis: It makes total sense, obviously to take a canoe

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Francis: and optimistically.

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Francis: and so I couldn't find any real information I did find as such, you know a couple of forums where people have posted about canoeing somewhere in those a couple of little anecdotal bits of evidence, but there's no guidebook, and there's no like information about what you're going to get.

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Francis: And

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Francis: so I think the other thing that I completely under, equipped with

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Francis: I've never been on a multi-day canoe trip before.

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Ela Law: Oh!

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Francis: And.

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Ela Law: So straight into the lots. Then Ben.

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Francis: Yeah. Yeah. So so Lisa dropped on me right as we were starting that she'd never been in a canoe.

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Francis: And so she is a very experienced kayaker, and so I had totally assumed that she'd done lots of canoeing as well. Obviously that was

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Francis: but

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Francis: I think this is one of the really important things about a trip like that is that

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Francis: you can do

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Francis: whatever you set out to do if you give yourself enough time and enough Grace.

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Francis: to do it comfortably.

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Francis: There is obviously a minimum amount of skill that you need.

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Francis: Just anywhere. So we're both.

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Francis: We've both done loads of outdoor stuff in the hills. We're both confident, navigating. We're both really comfortable. Wild camping we're not phased by.

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Francis: I think we saw 2 people the entire time we were on the trip.

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Ela Law: We don't.

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Francis: Phased by that. We're not phased by being somewhere where there aren't lots of other people. There's a little bit

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Francis: I wasn't actually phased by doing the canoe trip. But I was like.

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Francis: Emily, I really hope someone who's actually good at canoeing doesn't watch this and going. Yeah, you were doing that wrong.

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Francis: Oh, so

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Francis: there's quite a lot of footage of us sailing in it.

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Francis: Bought that sale arrived 3 weeks before we set off. I'd used it half an hour.

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Francis: I watched 10 min Youtube video

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Francis: had a go and then set off and did it. And it was fine.

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Francis: But what I, the other thing that I really wanted to do was to have this adventure

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Francis: that

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Francis: is achievable to

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Francis: most outdoorsy people.

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Francis: I've been to a lot more out since everybody outdoors like we go to Kendall Mountain Festival every year, and you know I watch a lot of films, and I'm a bit I'm just more aware and more engaged. And so.

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Ela Law: Blue room.

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Francis: Researching this.

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Francis: we discovered that at the point we started making it.

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Francis: there were only 3 other films featuring plus size women.

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Ela Law: Oh, really. Gosh, right.

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Francis: Which is where this whole thing about representation.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah.

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Francis: Because it's not just that you're not represented that you really aren't represented.

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Francis: And

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Francis: so I'm actually really keen to carry on making films. And and the other thing that I felt in watching a lot of these films is. They're very, very

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Francis: male, gazy.

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Francis: Lot of films

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Francis: about like 4 guys

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Francis: taking 6 weeks to go somewhere in the Himalayas.

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Francis: City.

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Francis: I mean, this is generalizing, but you know.

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Francis: Good guys, and they're off on a big adventure. It's taking them 4 weeks, probably reasonably expensive.

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Francis: Probably got sponsors. They're going up some massive, snowy peak that no one's been up before, and they're gonna ski down it, and that just

345
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Francis: doesn't engage me. It's something that's

346
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Francis: so far out of

347
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Francis: anything that I will ever be able to do.

348
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Francis: not

349
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Francis: just because not because of my body or anything like that.

350
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Francis: Yeah, I've got children.

351
00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:50.069
Francis: Job mortgage like

352
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.929
Francis: as a working mother.

353
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Francis: You don't have the luxury of 4 weeks to go to the Himalayas or the Andes, or you know, whatever it is. So I think it's really, really important. I don't think good storytelling needs

354
00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:09.630
Francis: a really long trip to somewhere really far away.

355
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Francis: And I feel like, really strongly, both on environmental grounds.

356
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Francis: And just

357
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Francis: well access to that kind of time off.

358
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Ela Law: Yeah.

359
00:38:21.130 --> 00:38:29.540
Francis: Is a privilege that is not afforded to most working women, especially if you're a little bit older, and you've got children.

360
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Ela Law: Yeah.

361
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Francis: Caring for your parents, or whatever.

362
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Ela Law: Yeah.

363
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Francis: Generally you have less access to free time. So it was also this thing of wanting to represent a trip that

364
00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:51.030
Francis: you know the average outdoorsy person who's confident doing stuff in Britain could think.

365
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Francis: I would try something like that. They maybe try.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

367
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Francis: But

368
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Francis: I'd never portage the canoe before I went on that trip. I had no idea how long it.

369
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Ela Law: Well, you're an expert in that now.

370
00:39:04.810 --> 00:39:07.010
Ela Law: There was a lot of that going on.

371
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Francis: And then.

372
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Ela Law: Know what it was before.

373
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Francis: I like it. I was. I was dreading it.

374
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Ela Law: Yeah.

375
00:39:11.530 --> 00:39:18.310
Francis: So portising is where you have to carry. Slash. Drag your canoe across the bits where there are water.

376
00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:20.229
Francis: I was dreading it.

377
00:39:20.600 --> 00:39:25.719
Francis: but, like all these things, we eventually figured out a system where we would.

378
00:39:26.580 --> 00:39:34.430
Francis: We had a big bag each, and a barrel with all of our kit that we want to keep really dry, and we would carry that to wherever

379
00:39:34.810 --> 00:39:40.300
Francis: and then we would walk all the way back, and we would get our canoe. We would just drag our canoe with a rope around our waist.

380
00:39:41.670 --> 00:39:46.620
Francis: If you just keep moving slowly forwards.

381
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.440
Francis: Awkward.

382
00:39:48.510 --> 00:39:51.760
Francis: but it is doable like it's tiring.

383
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:52.280
Ela Law: Yeah.

384
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:56.969
Francis: It's doable, and it's like, if you don't make it into a rush.

385
00:39:57.170 --> 00:39:57.590
Ela Law: Yeah.

386
00:39:57.590 --> 00:40:03.860
Francis: Love food, and you're not massively overcooking yourself every day, because

387
00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:07.990
Francis: you've got some stupid notion that you need to go the furthest.

388
00:40:08.900 --> 00:40:17.190
Francis: You know, like I've got? I've got a week off. How far can I go in my week off? I'm like well, why don't you say I've got a week off. How much fun can I have.

389
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Ela Law: Yeah.

390
00:40:18.270 --> 00:40:21.729
Francis: On my week off. How much can I enjoy

391
00:40:21.930 --> 00:40:27.979
Francis: the landscape that I'm in? If you're just blasting through it? You don't stop and enjoy it.

392
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Ela Law: No, that is so true, because you're missing half of it, and you're you're not enjoying it because you're pushing yourself too hard. What I really really loved is the what you just described about that extra layer of representation. Because you're so right. All of these sort of outdoorsy adventure films. They're all things that are not feasible, viable for the majority of people.

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Ela Law: unless that's your job. And you're a filmmaker, unless that is something that you literally use all of your savings for to climb whatever mountain or whatever you want to do, it's not something that it's something we watch we enjoy. But then there's no relationship to it for us. There's not even a thought. Oh.

394
00:41:11.950 --> 00:41:17.749
Francis: I can do that, and I think it's something. If you are really involved in the outdoor industry.

395
00:41:18.250 --> 00:41:38.719
Francis: And you know, maybe you do all this stuff to quite a high level. That probably is something that's aspirational to you. But that's not something that's aspirational to me and based on the feedback that I've had from the people who've seen the film. It's not something that's aspirational to the vast majority of the audiences. For all of these film festivals.

396
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Francis: So.

397
00:41:40.420 --> 00:41:42.050
Francis: yeah, I just think it.

398
00:41:42.890 --> 00:41:49.070
Francis: It's really important to have that. The diversity in the stories that are told and the.

399
00:41:49.070 --> 00:41:49.510
Ela Law: Yeah.

400
00:41:49.510 --> 00:41:52.070
Francis: That people see, because if

401
00:41:52.140 --> 00:41:55.899
Francis: all that is celebrated in the outdoors is the

402
00:41:56.290 --> 00:41:57.869
Francis: thin white man who gave.

403
00:41:57.870 --> 00:41:58.370
Ela Law: It's like.

404
00:41:58.370 --> 00:42:03.579
Francis: Further, fastest, 1st explorer ever.

405
00:42:04.210 --> 00:42:05.820
Francis: That's fair.

406
00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:07.000
Francis: like.

407
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:12.220
Ela Law: Yeah, it's not relevant to 50% of the people really.

408
00:42:12.220 --> 00:42:14.610
Francis: Me feel like I don't belong.

409
00:42:15.140 --> 00:42:17.179
Francis: Because that's not something I

410
00:42:17.290 --> 00:42:20.579
Francis: I even aspire to do. Yeah, whereas

411
00:42:21.170 --> 00:42:28.380
Francis: but I don't think good storytelling does not have to have that. You can tell a really compelling story.

412
00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:30.210
Francis: About anything.

413
00:42:30.790 --> 00:42:41.639
Francis: Creative about it. And I am really fascinated by that idea of like being really creative about how you experience the environment that's pretty much local to you.

414
00:42:41.640 --> 00:42:42.150
Ela Law: Yeah.

415
00:42:42.150 --> 00:42:45.372
Francis: But I do also own environment pretty local to me. It's pretty great.

416
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Ela Law: Yeah, you're very. You're very lucky that you have all of that beautiful, beautiful nature around you. But, as you said, I think everyone can find somewhere that isn't too far to explore and to. But but this is the thing with the sort of

417
00:43:01.710 --> 00:43:28.489
Ela Law: watching a short film like the one you made is so much more inspiring for people to kind of say, actually, I can do this if I put my mind to it. If I do a little bit of research. I can have a little think about what that might look like, whereas, you know, if you watch a film where someone goes up a mountain somewhere in Nepal. That is not something that most people can relate to. So I absolutely. I really really loved the film. And I think.

418
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:34.433
Ela Law: hearing you say. Oh, I could imagine making more of those films.

419
00:43:35.080 --> 00:43:41.100
Ela Law: that's really exciting to me, because I think more people need to see more of those films definitely.

420
00:43:41.100 --> 00:43:47.801
Francis: Yeah. And to sort of question whether I'm becoming some like massive narcissist. But

421
00:43:49.240 --> 00:43:52.896
Francis: apparently, according to my therapist, the fact that I consider. That means that I'm not

422
00:43:53.140 --> 00:43:55.460
Ela Law: Okay, yeah, that's a good point. Actually.

423
00:43:55.460 --> 00:44:07.020
Francis: Yeah, I was like, Thank you. But I really once I'd once I got over myself. My husband pointed out to me just as we were leaving.

424
00:44:07.290 --> 00:44:11.660
Francis: He was like, well, the worse it goes, the better the film's gonna be. And I was like, yes.

425
00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:14.260
Ela Law: Well, that also point well made.

426
00:44:14.260 --> 00:44:19.920
Francis: Like you need. You need, like you do need an element.

427
00:44:21.561 --> 00:44:24.018
Francis: an element of will they? Won't they?

428
00:44:24.370 --> 00:44:24.800
Ela Law: To try.

429
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:30.750
Francis: A little bit of tension in the story. You know, so kind of.

430
00:44:31.100 --> 00:44:33.390
Francis: And like I say so I'm I'm

431
00:44:33.690 --> 00:44:41.699
Francis: you know. It's spent all this time talking about how I really wanted to see people represented on the screen who weren't necessarily full time experts.

432
00:44:42.090 --> 00:44:50.259
Francis: Do this stuff all the time to really, really high level. Yeah, I am not a high level canoist.

433
00:44:51.010 --> 00:44:55.590
Francis: but not like, especially technically skilled or experienced.

434
00:44:56.190 --> 00:44:57.050
Francis: But

435
00:44:58.740 --> 00:45:02.830
Francis: just seeing people like that do stuff for me

436
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:16.560
Francis: is much more inspirational than seeing someone who's operating at that elite level of the sport. But I tell you what, when you start standing on the start line, and you're like.

437
00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:18.340
Ela Law: Why did I do this.

438
00:45:18.550 --> 00:45:20.540
Francis: Questioning my life, Joyce.

439
00:45:20.540 --> 00:45:40.130
Ela Law: Well, I think you chose incredibly well, and I would love you to share where people can actually watch the film. When is it going to be released. We're going to put all of this and links and everything to everybody outdoors in the show notes. But let us know where and when people can see the film.

440
00:45:40.130 --> 00:45:48.130
Francis: So in terms of physical screenings. We have got 2 showings in Kendall Mountain Film Festival.

441
00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:48.720
Ela Law: Okay.

442
00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:49.480
Francis: It's

443
00:45:50.116 --> 00:45:53.289
Francis: towards the end of November. What's that's the

444
00:45:53.860 --> 00:45:59.079
Francis: I think it's like the 20 second and the 24th of November. I can't remember exactly. So

445
00:45:59.120 --> 00:46:04.990
Francis: Kendal Mountain Film Festival is 2 showings, and we are then going on tour.

446
00:46:04.990 --> 00:46:05.610
Ela Law: Oof.

447
00:46:06.153 --> 00:46:17.500
Francis: Afterwards. Which I'm really excited about. Actually. So we've partnered with out Kit, and we're going to be going around 6 of their stores. So the week following. So from the 25th

448
00:46:17.790 --> 00:46:20.540
Francis: to the 30th of November.

449
00:46:21.330 --> 00:46:25.030
Francis: We will be going to Inverness, Edinburgh.

450
00:46:25.180 --> 00:46:27.730
Francis: Gateshead, Havasage.

451
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:31.719
Francis: Kingston, near London, and Bristol.

452
00:46:32.630 --> 00:46:36.580
Francis: for a night of plus size, representation, fun.

453
00:46:36.580 --> 00:46:58.980
Ela Law: I love that so much. And you know what I think, a lot of people who listen to our podcast and a lot of people who are members of body image fitness. They are scattered all over the country, knowing where they might go and and access a screening will be really, really helpful. So again, I'll put that in the show notes for anybody listening who wants to go and watch the film.

454
00:46:58.980 --> 00:46:59.310
Francis: Yeah.

455
00:46:59.310 --> 00:47:02.089
Ela Law: I highly recommend it. It's so much fun.

456
00:47:02.090 --> 00:47:03.849
Francis: Say, the film's only about 20 min long.

457
00:47:04.270 --> 00:47:08.350
Francis: We're also gonna show the all bodies on bikes film, which.

458
00:47:08.350 --> 00:47:08.920
Ela Law: Brilliant.

459
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:13.659
Francis: Was really against about 15 min. I mean, that's just available on Youtube. If people.

460
00:47:13.990 --> 00:47:15.170
Francis: Make it

461
00:47:15.980 --> 00:47:24.990
Francis: But that film came out about the time that we were starting everybody outdoors. So for me it was. It was a really pivotal.

462
00:47:25.340 --> 00:47:27.810
Francis: a really really pivotal moment in.

463
00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:30.519
Francis: Sort of turning to activism.

464
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:36.490
Francis: Because, seeing, like Marley Blonsky and Kaylee Kornhauser, just.

465
00:47:37.330 --> 00:47:44.890
Francis: I had. I had not appreciated the emotional impact that, seeing that film was going to have on me, so that

466
00:47:45.290 --> 00:47:46.990
Francis: one who's confident.

467
00:47:47.410 --> 00:47:48.940
Francis: Place in the outdoors and.

468
00:47:49.590 --> 00:47:55.340
Francis: I I you know I must have watched that film like 10 or 15 times the 1st week it was released.

469
00:47:55.340 --> 00:47:56.070
Ela Law: Wow!

470
00:47:56.070 --> 00:48:04.283
Francis: And I was like just completely blown away by it, and by how seen, it made me feel

471
00:48:05.210 --> 00:48:10.289
Francis: and so so for me, that was a like the reason that we've got it in there is because it was

472
00:48:10.530 --> 00:48:13.380
Francis: such a pivotal moment in

473
00:48:13.900 --> 00:48:18.804
Francis: how I've gone about the last 4 years of my life.

474
00:48:19.250 --> 00:48:19.850
Ela Law: You know.

475
00:48:19.850 --> 00:48:26.590
Francis: Sort of turning from. I'm just someone who goes and does all these things to. I'm going to be a campaigner has been.

476
00:48:27.470 --> 00:48:27.800
Francis: yeah.

477
00:48:28.130 --> 00:48:34.870
Ela Law: Wow! That's amazing. I have not seen that film. And I will definitely look that up because it sounds amazing.

478
00:48:34.870 --> 00:48:36.560
Francis: Yeah, no, it's really, really brilliant.

479
00:48:37.160 --> 00:48:42.680
Francis: Yeah. And then we'll have a we'll have some behind the scenes. Chat. So Roxanna's the directors coming with me and.

480
00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:44.000
Ela Law: Fantastic.

481
00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:46.707
Francis: To Roxanne. I'd also never been in a canoe.

482
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:53.749
Francis: but she very sensibly hired a lovely guide who knew what she was doing to help her round.

483
00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:58.829
Ela Law: Very helpful, I think, that adds to the to the sense of adventure, doesn't it?

484
00:48:59.375 --> 00:48:59.920
Francis: Yeah.

485
00:49:00.373 --> 00:49:07.840
Francis: So, however, much stuff we were carrying, they were carrying all of that, and a huge suitcase of film kit.

486
00:49:09.410 --> 00:49:12.270
Ela Law: Yeah, this is the behind the scenes that we don't see.

487
00:49:12.710 --> 00:49:13.310
Francis: Sort of.

488
00:49:13.310 --> 00:49:37.970
Ela Law: How did they? Yeah, brilliant Emily, this has been so much fun. Thank you. So so much for coming on the podcast? As I said, I will link to everything I can link to in the show notes, and people can find you on. Everybody outdoors have a look at the website, have a look at their socials. It's absolutely amazing. And yeah, and maybe jump on the Facebook group as well.

489
00:49:38.470 --> 00:49:39.200
Ela Law: Yep.

490
00:49:39.200 --> 00:49:42.369
Francis: That would be. It would be lovely. See as many new people as we could.

491
00:49:42.370 --> 00:49:44.150
Ela Law: Yay, excellent.

492
00:49:44.150 --> 00:49:47.609
Francis: If you hear the podcast, and come to a film, show me, come and say, Hi.

493
00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:49.163
Ela Law: Yes, absolutely

494
00:49:50.820 --> 00:50:01.069
Ela Law: brilliant. Thank you so much again. And yes, I hope as many people will, will check out the film and your website as possible. Whoever's.

495
00:50:01.070 --> 00:50:04.360
Francis: That's amazing. Well, thanks very much for taking the time to chat. It's been really lovely.

496
00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:05.850
Ela Law: That was my pleasure.

497
00:50:06.273 --> 00:50:07.119
Francis: Like it.