REAL Body Acceptance. An Episode on Body Grief with Bri Campos.

Bri Campos is a tour de force.  She believes wholeheartedly in creating language around body image and encourages non-diet and intuitive eating providers not to skirt the issue.

We chat about how integral building a relationship with our bodies can hugely impact how we feel about ourselves and how we show up for others.

Main Takeaways
Why sitting in the discomfort with our bodies can help us build a better relationship with our bodies.
The pursuit of health does NOT equal the pursuit of thinness
Why so many of us are still trying to CONTROL our bodies and at what cost?
Why body image work matters, especially when it comes to eating disorders work.
Why this is not just a superficial topic, but a social justice issue.

What a joy to be joined by Bri, who was so generous with her time and articulated these sensitive issues so beautifully. She is a true gem and to find out more about her OR to work with her in a body image capacity or as a provider:

Check out her website 
OR
find her on Instagram.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So welcome to another episode of the find your strong podcast with me, Christine Chessman.

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Ela Law: Amazing!

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Ela Law: Oh.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, we're still practiced, aren't we? So rehearse today? We have a really very special guest for you who needs no introduction. But we're going to introduce her anyway. Bree Campos! My, I if I'm not pronouncing that right bree, please correct me. I have been working with Bree for a while now, and

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Christine Chessman: I was such a fan girl before I worked with her. And now I'm an even bigger fan girl. I have to say she is really helping me with some business coaching, so you might not know that Bree is also a business coach extraordinaire, which she might talk to you a bit about as we go through the podcast but the main reason that I wanted to talk to bree today.

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Christine Chessman: which we'll get into is about body grief and specifically bargaining the bargaining phase of body grief

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Christine Chessman: which we will explore. But 1st things first.st Welcome, Brie.

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Christine Chessman: Thank you.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So much for that beautiful introduction. I always say you don't need to fangirl over me. I am just a girl from Jersey who loves talking about body image. So I'm so I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much.

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Christine Chessman: And you also love coffee and bagels. So.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Heck.

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Christine Chessman: Get any better. I think.

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Ela Law: That's what I've eaten today. I've just had coffee and bagels actually.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, but not not a New Jersey Bagel.

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Ela Law: Not a New Jersey Bagel? No, no.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah, that we we like. That's like that, that. And we don't pump our own gas like, those are our 2 flexes.

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Christine Chessman: Do you not.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I we do not we. I think we're the only state that doesn't help. Yes, I know. Wow!

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Christine Chessman: I'm old enough to remember people doing that for us. This is like, even in Northern Ireland. We used to have somebody do it for you. That was so nice.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah, we're just, we're, we're. We're very privileged state. We're like our own gas.

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Ela Law: No, no! Diesel on your hands.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): The Jersey girls don't pump gas, we pump fists so.

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Christine Chessman: If you are listening, if you're not listening, live!

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Christine Chessman: This is

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Christine Chessman: no

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Christine Chessman: us.

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Christine Chessman: It's not coming head to head with

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Christine Chessman: Kamala Harris. So, Brie. We might talk about that a little bit. But 1st we're going to get into a little bit about your story. I would love you just to talk to us about how you landed in this body image space and specifically

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Christine Chessman: the body group

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Christine Chessman: relief space.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah. Well, so my, my origin story of

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Brianna Campos (she/her): you know how I came to become a body image coach. I 1st was licensed as a Mental health counselor. I still am in the State of New Jersey, but I exist in a larger body. I identify as being fat when I use the word fat. I use it in a reclaimed way. I don't mean it in a discriminatory way. I don't mean it in a way that is like degrading, and I know that that word used to bother me. I used to be bothered when people would identify as fat.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and so I've always, you know, I was always on a weight loss journey, thinking that finding weight loss was going to help me become the person I was supposed to be, and that the world would get to see the real me. I used to say things like, I feel like I'm in a fat suit, and that like, if people could just

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Brianna Campos (she/her): see beneath the fatness they they would see who the real me is, and never, never clocked, that, as you know, self-esteem never clocked that as as a wound, because it was being

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Brianna Campos (she/her): celebrated, and it was being confirmed

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Brianna Campos (she/her): by the people around me.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And so it wasn't until I got to grad school, where I ended up getting an internship

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Brianna Campos (she/her): in an eating disorder center, and it was the 1st time where I was like.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I think I have an eating disorder. And what was so hard about that was because deb regard is somebody who's who's in the health and every size. Field says this quote

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Brianna Campos (she/her): what was diagnosed in them was being prescribed to me

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Brianna Campos (she/her): right? What was being diagnosed in people in small bodies was considered an eating disorder, but when I did it, it was okay, quote unquote, because it was for quote, unquote health.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And I just started to see these discrepancies between what I said and what I did. We call it a cognitive dissonance, right? So I'd say, I'm going to do this for my health.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And then this thing would then cause me to spiral, and I'm like, Well, that can't be healthy. And so I really had to reckon.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Is this the pursuit of health, or is this the pursuit of thinness, and it became very clear that those 2 things were not mutually exclusive.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And so I started leaning into body image work, you know, in eating disorder, recovery.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): we would say things like, you know. Let's put body image on the back. Burner. Body image is the last step to come, and I would have girls that would sit with me and be like. If you want me to eat lunch today. We have to do body image now.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and like fair point. And so it forced me to begin looking at language around body image, that I could then talk with my clients around.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and so to that end. The framework that I've sort of stumbled into is this concept of body grief?

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Because the idea for many people was that I am going to accept my body. I'm going to find this this radical body acceptance, and when you take body acceptance at face value

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Brianna Campos (she/her): it, there's probably this preconceived notion that you're going to have to like what your body looks like.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): There's also a preconceived notion that you're going to get to this place where you don't get activated by your body, where you don't feel distress, where you don't have a quote unquote bad body Image Day. And when I realized that that was an impossible task

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I started looking at. Well, if acceptance is a place I want to orbit, I'm probably going to have to go through the stages of grief.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and so I remember I would see a couple of posts on Instagram about body grief. But then there was nothing. There was no, there was nothing further, and so in my own story I am no stranger to grief. I have experienced deep loss in my life, and when you look up the definition of

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Brianna Campos (she/her): grief. It's defined as deep sorrow which that doesn't help anybody right. But when you look up the definition of sorrow, it's defined as loss

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that causes distress.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and there was something about that that resonated with me when it came to body

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that it wasn't just that my body isn't changing, but it is the loss of what that means for me that is causing distress.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and I had to be able to say, I don't like this. This is unfair. This is hard

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and simultaneously. I can't fix this. And so acceptance

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Brianna Campos (she/her): changed from being I like my body to

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Brianna Campos (she/her): this is my body.

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Ela Law: Wow. I have to say, I've I listen to your body grievers podcast. Which I would

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Ela Law: encourage everybody to listen to. I loved it, and I found it so so helpful in my own practice to get to grips with the concept of body grief and the different stages of it. And

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Ela Law: this kind of shiny object that is acceptance, that it it's not. It's not that you have to love your body and that you have to like your body. It's different. It's way more nuanced. And there's no way that we can just

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Ela Law: jump through life loving our bodies every single day. So I have to say, it's it's such a. It's such an important way of looking at body image. And yeah, I just want to say, thank you for coming up with this and to to sort of make it easier for people like me to explain it to people and to use it in our practice. And I'm sure you've helped thousands and thousands of people with it

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Ela Law: sort of coming to terms with it. So.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So, yeah.

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Ela Law: It's brilliant.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I will say that I will never take credit for the term of body grief. I've heard it from other people, but nobody had developed language around it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That's that's the only thing that I've done, and but truth be told, like nobody developed language around body image either.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So had all of these people and providers trying to help people heal their relationship with food, heal the relationship to movement.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But then, not talking about the relationship to body. And so what I what I encourage folks to think about is, I've heard clients say to me, you know, I don't want a relationship with my body. I'm like, well.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that's fine. But the reality is, you have one regardless.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It doesn't have to be the relationship that you think it quote unquote, should be where you like, love it, and you, you know, worship your stretch marks, and you know, love to jiggle your body like that might not be what acceptance looks like for you. For me the goal became. I just want to hate my body a little bit less than I do right now.

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Ela Law: Thanks.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I want to have brain space that is not consumed. 24, 7 around. What is my body doing? How does my body look? How are people perceiving me?

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And and that that is where the grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): work really happens. And I'll also encourage people of if the idea of being in a relationship with your body

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Brianna Campos (she/her): is hard.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Think of it this way, right? There is no relationship in your life

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that you are like. I love this person. A 100% of the time we have. Like we, we had conflict. Once we went to therapy, we've never had a conflict again. That is so.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Why do we have that expectation of our body? And so when people come to me and they're like, Okay, my goal is, I want to not have like body image issues. I want to not feel insecure. I'm like, okay. Well, when you figure out how to do that, you come, tell me, and I'll work with you, because I haven't figured out how to do that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): because it's not possible. And so the goal, instead of fixing the you know, the discomfort, is learning to manage and navigate through it.

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Ela Law: Love, that love, that.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I mean, I I have to say I find it confronting. And that's part of the work. That's part of the work, because there is a huge part of me which is really saddened by that idea that you

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Christine Chessman: it's about acceptance rather than actually.

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Christine Chessman: you know, there's still a bit of me, which is why I want to talk to you about bargaining, which is, I want to actually

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Christine Chessman: like what I see. I want to get to a place where I like what I see, and and that is not.

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Christine Chessman: I know in my head that that is never. That is not a game I'm going to win. We age our bodies change liking. What you say in the moment is not

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Christine Chessman: dealing with body grief, and is not actual body acceptance

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Christine Chessman: that is, bargaining.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): What I'll say, though, is that like

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Brianna Campos (she/her): liking what you see can be a byproduct of the grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): right of the process where a body like mine, when I started this work

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Brianna Campos (she/her): would have activated me, would have caused high levels of distress, me being the weight that I'm at. I remember thinking in my brain like I can gain weight, but I just can't gain this much. And in the year of our Lord and Savior 2024, I saw my weight for the 1st time in years, and a number that

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Brianna Campos (she/her): years ago 2018 would have devastated me had no impact on me like I wasn't excited about it. But I was neutral, that I was like, okay, this is information, and that is the evidence of the work. That is evidence of the

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Brianna Campos (she/her): deprogramming from diet culture. It is evidence of the uncoupling of my worth and value to my body size and the moralization of my body size. It is the anti-fat bias work of realizing. Wow! I put such expectation on bodies.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but mostly my own, like like I. I don't love people in my life

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Brianna Campos (she/her): based off of what they look like.

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Christine Chessman: No.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But I put that standard on myself, and when that no longer became the standard, the byproduct

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Brianna Campos (she/her): was body love.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It just wasn't the goal.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: This. This is amazing to me that you the scale is something which can be really contentious and triggering for so many people, and you know I've done a lot of work.

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Christine Chessman: and and but Ella and I are both in straight size bodies, yet I will be blind, weighed. I have not seen my weight in many, many years. That's coming from an eating disorder background. I find it quite triggering, and I don't want to be brought back to a certain place

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Christine Chessman: where I was every day checking my weight and worrying about my weight. I don't want to be in that place, so I don't feel quite ready.

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Christine Chessman: So, yeah.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That's so resourceful like of like. There's no reason that you need to know your weight right. The only reason I ended up finding out. My weight was because I had a procedure done, and they had to weigh me for anesthesia.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and they put it in my chart like that was the only reason I stumbled upon it. But if I was at the time when I was digging through like, Okay, yeah, seeing the number on the scale is going to activate me. But you know what's also activating me, losing the strength and mobility that I once had

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that was more pressing because that was something I was dealing with in my everyday, whereas my weight was something I'm like, I could never know my weight again and be okay.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But the evidence of. Oh, wow! The work was working

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Brianna Campos (she/her): even when you weren't actively working on it. And that's what makes this work so hard is with diet culture. We have so many ways to measure.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): we have so many ways to assess like quote unquote, is this working the only thing we have with body, image.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): healing is time and lived experience, and it requires you to do the thing

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and say, Oh, this doesn't impact me the same way. Or, Oh, this is still impacting me the same way. Or, you know, like it's it's beginning to gauge and like working on the process, while also for for us is being in helping others as well.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and so that that can get really messy as well.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And so I think when we, when we take away the destination of this, is where I have to arrive. This is what it looks like.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): We just get to do life. We just get to experience our bodies, and we get to figure out how to navigate through without there being a destination to arrive to.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I think there's 2 words that really jumped out at me, which is time and process. And I think that is just so key to to any work really, in the non-diet space, because we are so

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Ela Law: obsessed with quick fixes and quick things, and people just don't give themselves time to do this work, they think, oh, I'll do the 6 week course, and then I'll be healed. I'll be fine. And also it's always about this goal. It's always about. Oh, I need to do this, and the number of times I've had clients say to me. I thought I'd be further along by now.

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Ela Law: I'd be if I had a pound. Every time someone said it I'd be sitting on an island sipping Margaritas right now, and it's my own island, so it's just one of those things that I think is so important to understand that the process is the thing that we need to focus on. And the time we need to give ourselves and the grace and the compassion to kind of work through that is really really important. So I love hearing that from you.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I want to make. I want to make something clear. Time does not heal like.

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Ela Law: Night.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Old adage that, like time, is all wounds that's trash. Can I curse on this podcast.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, exactly.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That's bullshit. Okay.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): time. Time does not have the power to heal us. The only thing time has the power to do is allow us to become more familiar.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): A lot of times I describe body grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): like being sucked in by the tide.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and when we are in diet culture we are actively fighting against the tide, and it is exhausting, and maybe you see some progress. But then you're right back where you were, and what we're asking you to do is to surrender.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): asking you to say, stop fighting and let what happens happens. And that is scary. Because what we're doing is we're giving up control.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And for many of us, especially those of us with eating disorder, history, we love control.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But the truth is, it's not actually control. It is just the semblance of control.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm!

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Christine Chessman: I think, wasn't it? Glenn? And Doyle said something that you can't control, something you love, or you can't love, something that you are controlling or trying to control.

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Christine Chessman: And I think you know, you might. As you say, you can't control your body because your body will change because it's supposed to change. You know, all of our bodies change in their own ways, and it's not something that we have that control over. We don't have full control over our health. Despite what

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Christine Chessman: tick Tock might tell you. Yeah, I mean, it's really something that takes. Yeah, I think on this, podcast I listened to with you on it this morning. It was you called it Expedition, a body image expedition rather than journey. Because we can't. We hate the word.

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Ela Law: We hate it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Oh, yeah, yeah, I call it. I call it. I call body image work like an archeological dig. Right?

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): You're on an excavation. We are going. We are just going to gather information. And then with that information, we get to determine, okay, what do we do with it? I often feel like doing body image work. I love analogies. Y'all, it's probably my Adhd, but it's like, okay. This is what happens with clients. Right? Is they? It's we're going into their basement. And we're like, okay, we have to clean. We have to organize all of these buckets, so they just start wanting to dump out all the buckets. And then they're like, Oh, my God! I'm overwhelmed. I can't believe I'm not further by now. And I'm like.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah, because this wasn't a good plan. We can't open all these buckets.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Can we pick one bucket at a time and organize that bucket, and maybe not even finish that bucket and come back to it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And that goes back to that process. Is, it feels messier. And so, instead of saying, I'm going to heal my body image, and it's going to look like this

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Brianna Campos (she/her): instead. Having it look like

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I I want to be able to one day. Look at my weight on the scale, and I can't do that now.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But what are the things I need to do to get there? What are the things that I maybe need to explore. And as you begin to explore, if.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): like, Christine was saying, it's like Nope, my body is saying, please don't. We need to honor that because that's trauma. Your body is speaking to you in the only way it knows how. And if you're anything like me, you're like. It's fine. We can push past it, and we will like we get there. And then we figure it out, and then we can relax.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): If that helps. No one helps no one. So we can find that lower hanging fruit.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And we can find the thing that feels

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Brianna Campos (she/her): activating but not debilitating.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And over time

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Brianna Campos (she/her): you will have more information, you'll have more awareness.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and you'll you'll really begin to see

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Brianna Campos (she/her): a shift. You'll begin to see that shift.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: We just need. I'm so sorry.

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Ela Law: Brie. Something just popped into my head, and I don't know if you're familiar with the 6th stage of grieving, which is purpose.

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Ela Law: So I'm curious to see if that is something that resonates with you.

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Christine Chessman: Even.

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Ela Law: All of the work you've done.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yes, yeah. So I'll just

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Hello.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Christine, you are definitely coming in at at inopportune times.

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Ela Law: Bree! Just something that just popped into my head a question. I'm sure you're familiar with the 6th stage of grief, which is purpose. I can't remember who added it, but I love that, and I don't think it's maybe accessible to everybody. But I wonder whether the work you do is pretty much

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Ela Law: built on, or has actually led you to find purpose.

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Ela Law: But for for you know, for for your life, and in your life.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah. So I actually know who who added this this stage so quick. Mini lesson on the stages of grief. They started as the stages of death and dying. They were created by Elizabeth Kubel Ross.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Found in her work was that death and dying is bereavement, but that these stages encompassed so much more, and that we can grieve things that are not death.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): We can grieve so much, and so the stages of grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): is our denial, anger.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): bargaining, depression, and then acceptance. And I know we want to spend a little time talking about the bargaining phase, but I'll come back to that. David Kessler worked very closely with Elizabeth Cooper Ross, and after she passed on he ended up experiencing a tragedy of his own.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I believe his son passed away.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and in his grief he.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): you know, reached out to the

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Brianna Campos (she/her): the Kubler Foundation, and asked.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Can we add this stage to the stages? And so the the 6th stage is finding meaning and purpose.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and one of the things that he says is that not every person is going to find meaning in their grief.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that sometimes it's just going to be pain

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Brianna Campos (she/her): for me when I realized that I had to grieve my body.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): the way that I found peace

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Brianna Campos (she/her): was by realizing if I can use the little bit that I've learned

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to to help myself

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to help someone else, even just one person.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It will have made my grief worth it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And wow! It's bringing so much emotion for me.

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Ela Law: I've got goosebumps.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Like. Never in my wildest dreams did I think

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Brianna Campos (she/her): body image with Bree would be anything more than just like a little Instagram page where I talked about body image, and I'm I'm so humbled and honored, and and yes, I have found meaning in my grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and make no mistake.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): If I didn't have to experience it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I wouldn't

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Brianna Campos (she/her): like if I could go back and not have to experience it, and I could have held on to privilege so that I did not need to experience that I, 100% most likely would have chosen that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But because that's not a choice for me.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): This is the consolation and the consolation being that I have been able to not only heal myself.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but have been able to partner with

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Brianna Campos (she/her): hundreds of people.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): healing their relationship with their with with body, image.

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Ela Law: That is so powerful to hear, and I think it's

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Ela Law: I love that I got goosebumps there when you said, even if I just help that one person it's been. It's been worth it. Because I think that's something that people might feel.

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Ela Law: I think this is something we're going to talk about feel stuck with this kind of sense of well, this is so hard, this is so unfair! This is so. Why, why me

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Ela Law: Do you? Do you get that a lot when you work with people.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Absolutely. And and here's here's the reality. It is.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That is the depression right of sitting in the injustice of the loss.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And that is why I find, especially people

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Brianna Campos (she/her): when it comes to body grief.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): If they had experienced privilege with our body in the past.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): or

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Brianna Campos (she/her): if the idea of not ever being able to have a privilege like that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It can keep them stuck in this bargaining phase

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Brianna Campos (she/her): because it's like, I

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I'm I like, I'm gonna do what I can, so that I don't have to feel that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And that goes back to the tide of you're just swimming against the tide.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Eventually, it's eventually you're going to get there. And and here's the truth is, I'm sure all of us know people who are stuck and committed to being stuck

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Brianna Campos (she/her): in die culture.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But it's not going to bring them the peace that they're hoping it will.

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Christine Chessman: The one thing, though, that the bargaining phase that was really interesting, because I think I had a chat with you about, you know a business chat because you're amazing business coaching group and you mentioned. I was like thinking, oh, my clients aren't quite ready for this intuitive movement or intuitive eating, and you were like, maybe they're stuck in the bargaining phase, and I was like.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like I had not even considered that.

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Christine Chessman: But it so much sense, it's like, you know, still doing the boot camps. They're still doing all the movement they can. They're running all the time. They're.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Or like. It's even like, you know, like I went for a walk today. But that's not enough like right. There's still these like little pieces of diet culture that that remain

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that are celebrated by society. And so of like, Oh, like, I wasn't hungry today like I wasn't. I didn't go back for seconds today. Of no, that's not. That's not something worth celebrating.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): because there's no moralization to it like not like it would be like I breathed air today, cool like. And so I think I think for folks, we want to skip to the acceptance right? We want to just get to the place where we're like. You know, I love my body, I worship my body, I love my stretch marks, I love all the and and so then, when that feels impossible.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Then they look at the the trajectory of like, well, okay, well, here's where I'm gonna have to go. And if you're Adhd like me. You're like, you know, what? That feels really hard. I'm not going to do that, or like I'll do that later, or, you know, like, let me try this other thing first, st

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but when you get to a place where you have no

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Brianna Campos (she/her): choice.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): when your agency is gone.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and and this is how I describe the bargaining phase right is

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Brianna Campos (she/her): for folks. They have one foot

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Brianna Campos (she/her): on the body liberation train. There's something about it that appeals to them. There's something that's pulling them in, but they still have one foot on the diet culture train.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and the trains are taken off.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and so you have to pick a train. You have to. You have to make a choice, and so what I will encourage folks is.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): can you make the choice? For now it does not have to be forever.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Let's let's give body liberation

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Brianna Campos (she/her): our full self. Let's see what happens and what our clients will begin to see

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Brianna Campos (she/her): is that wait. This is actually possible.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It's not the absence of grief.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): it is not the absence of distress.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but it is the subtle piece in knowing I am resourceful enough

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to handle

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that distress.

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Ela Law: I like the for now, because it's less scary and less absolute. It's it's something that people can probably get on board with quite literally get on board that train.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah, for.

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Ela Law: One ride and see, and just just sort of have it in small steps rather than oh, you have to be all in or all out, which is very diet culture, isn't it? It's very sort of one thing or the other.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Absolutely. And that's and that's, I think, part of the appeal of like, you know, diet culture is like, well, you have to do this for the rest of your life, and it's a lifestyle change. And there's like there's moralization, and there's judgment. And there's, you know, a hierarchy. And and I know for me as somebody who existed in a fat, or who exists in a fat body.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I was never going to get to a place where I was acceptable.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): because even in my smallest fat body

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Brianna Campos (she/her): it was still a problem. And so it was easier for me to say, you know what

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I'm I'm not. I'm not riding this train anymore.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But if I had had privilege, I think that would have been a lot harder to walk away from.

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Christine Chessman: That's a really interesting point.

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Christine Chessman: That's yeah. Again, something that

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Christine Chessman: we need to think about. Renniella.

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Ela Law: Yeah, we really do.

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Christine Chessman: Clients as well.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Because I don't have anything to compare it to. I have never.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I've never had that privilege.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): so I can't miss what I don't have.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And when I it's like, Okay, well, I have been doing this my whole life. My, my mom's favorite story to tell about me is when I wanted to learn how to tie my shoes, I would sit. I sat with my shoe, and I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it until I got it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): If I was going to figure out how to lose weight, I was going to be the one like I would have been the one to do it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So it's not about effort, right? It's not about how hard it can try. And when I realized, Wow, like the effort I'm putting in is never going to bring me the reward that I'm hoping it will.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): year to say, Yeah, I

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I don't need to put this much effort in.

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Christine Chessman: And you know we it reminds me of the film that we saw. Your fat friend with Aubrey Gordon.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yes.

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Christine Chessman: Whereas, like people look at me and think I need to do all the things, whereas

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Christine Chessman: the reason I'm here is because I've done all the things.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Made up.

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Christine Chessman: Assumption. You know, when you look at somebody's body, that you can tell anything about what they have been through, what their history is, who they are, what their health is. And you know, going right back to the beginning, when you were talking about eating disorders, I have quite a lot of experience in that field, the simple fact that you can be prescribed.

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Christine Chessman: the behaviors that are so detrimental to your health, whether you're in a small body, a medium sized body, a fat body. It is just.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, there is so much work to be done in that field.

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Christine Chessman: and that's you know me coming from that history, but also having a daughter who's recently gone through it. When when you get to a certain weight you're seen as recovered, you're fine. You don't need to worry anymore. We'll set you free. You don't need our help, and it's

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Christine Chessman: it's really sad. I find it really sad that actually, we're still stuck there after

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Christine Chessman: so many.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Right? And and so so the question that we have to ask ourselves is, Who profits from that right? Why this exists? Because someone profits from it. The die culture is a 72 billion dollars industry. Somebody gets to profit right when there is privilege, it means that there is oppression.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and people who have privilege. It's harder to let go of that privilege because you don't want to experience the oppression. And this is where I had to get to in my journey of

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I could save myself. I'm like I had had weight, loss, surgery. I was like I could. They want to do another surgery right now I could save myself.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but it came down to.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But it's either I'm saving myself or I'm saving everyone I'm I'm either advocating for just me and my safety, or I'm saying, Hey, nobody should be treated this way.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that is the difference between the individual and the collective. This is how body, image work becomes body liberation, work. It is not just about the individual it is advocating for the right of every person and everybody that they deserve

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Brianna Campos (she/her): unbiased medical advice, human decency, and respect, and that even if I have more privilege than someone else, I don't get to stand and hold that privilege and not think about it. I get to stand with the person who is less privileged, and say, this isn't right.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that is hard

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to stand there.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but it's also so rewarding.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and it is so healing. And this is where we say that body liberation work. Is it started as a social justice movement? It was never intended. Body positivity was never intended to be about loving the skin you're in.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): It was co-opted by diet culture, co-opted by the world.

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Ela Law: the concept of privilege in and of itself, I think is very difficult for people to grasp, because, if you say to a straight size or smaller bodied person. Oh, well, you've got so much privilege. They will go back to you and say, Well, I struggle with my body image. They just don't understand that there is a real difference in how the world perceives you. If you are in a smaller body.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And and let's let's make no mistake. Right, like many of us, didn't do anything to earn our privilege like

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Brianna Campos (she/her): you are bad because you have privilege. But.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I am in a super fat body. If you can walk into most stores and buy clothing. Privilege that I don't

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Brianna Campos (she/her): are in a small, fat body, and you can buy most plus size clothes in store. You have a privilege I don't. I shared on my Instagram. There was a couple of weeks ago. IA friend of mine, wanted to take me to the Spa for my birthday, and I'm about an hour away from the Spa, and so I went and stayed at her house, and I forgot my bathing suit. I forgot my bathing suit bottom, because Hashtag Adhd.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And I could not find a single store

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that opened before 10 Am. That had a bathing suit bottom that would fit me, and that like. And this, let's talk about the grief process in that I went into problem solving. I was like I was in the bargaining phase. Maybe I can still fix this. I started reaching out to friends of like, hey, is it? Can I come by like, you know, I was like I could drive home and get my bathing suit, but I didn't want to do that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And I started looking up stores. I started calling, seeing, is anybody like, maybe the website's wrong. And I had to get to a place where I'm like. I can't fix this, so I have 2 choices. I either don't go to the Spa, or I drive an hour. Go get my bathing suit and drive an hour back.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and it sucks that I have to do that. That is the grief it sucks that I have to do that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that is also part of the motivation of

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Brianna Campos (she/her): the collective.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): because.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I don't want anyone else to have to experience that.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And you're not. You're not alone in that experience, Bree, and that's why it's so important.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I had a very interesting conversation for another podcast. Recording yesterday with someone called Emily, who is the co-founder of an organization called everybody outdoors. So she and her friends have started this organization so that the outdoors and outdoor activities become accessible, and also that there is representation of larger plus size people in the outside space. So people see? Actually, oh, I can go on a hike.

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Ela Law: There is a coat that I can wear that isn't super cheap, or you know those kind of things. So they're really pushing and lobbying for clothes to be available in larger sizes, but not just any sort of knockoff but proper clothes, so that you have the proper gear. And I watched a film that she recently made, and it was such an interesting thing to watch her straight size friend, go into a shop.

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Ela Law: have a look at what was there, pick the thing that she liked? Not just what fitted her. She picked the thing she liked, went out of the shop.

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Ela Law: done right. Emily had to research online and find things that have to be custom made for her. And it's yeah. It's just so sad that that is still the state of of affairs. It's.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And I get why, somebody would not want that to be their reality.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And here's the problem is that that is still a reality for some.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So even if it's not a reality for you.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And you get to protect yourself.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But do we get to protect the collective?

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Are you okay with somebody else? Your friend, your your partner, your you know your coworker experiencing that?

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And if the answer is no, the problem is bigger.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that's that liberation work that you know, people might not be ready for. And that's okay. And even, you know, Sonia Rene Taylor's book, the body's not an apology. A lot of people when they start to do this, you know, deprogramming from diet culture, they open Sonia's book, and they're like Nope, not ready for radical acceptance.

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Ela Law: That's.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): So valid.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And so that's where we get to. Then start with grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): is, let's just let it suck.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Let's just let

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Brianna Campos (she/her): the feelings be be mad that you can't buy a bathing suit in store last minute.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Be mad. That that is the status quo.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and we don't have to silver line it. We don't have to, you know, you know. Say it like well, at least, no, we just get to. We just get to be upset by it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But we don't stay there. We don't stay stuck

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Brianna Campos (she/her): in. The upsetness is we? Take that, and it eventually will bring us closer into that acceptance of I don't have to like it.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): but this is my reality.

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Ela Law: It's a really good example of how you circle through the different stages that you don't just go from one to the next. You always circle back and round, and up and down.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I I just went through that like like a couple of weeks ago, and I've been doing this work for so long. But here's here's here's the magic

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Brianna Campos (she/her): is because I've been doing this work for so long. I was able to move through it much quicker.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I was able to move through it so fast that it didn't impact my ability to be present with my friend. I didn't rate myself, for I did rate myself for forgetting my bathing suit, which is a whole other. That's like a little bit of that Adhd shame of like.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Why like, why couldn't you do? And when we're looking for blame, we're looking to just absolve the discomfort, and then eventually got to the point of like, I got 2 options. These are my options, and I'm going to do it. And I'm gonna go to the Spa and have a great time. And it did. And that's what I want for folks is to be able to live their life

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Brianna Campos (she/her): in the body, that they have not the body, that they think they should be in.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, I could listen to you all day, Bree, before we end. Today I want to talk, ask you something about movement and how you feel currently about movement and your own mobility and your relationship with movement.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Oh, yes.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Loaded question.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): no, no, no, no. So yeah. I mean, I have been grieving movement

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Brianna Campos (she/her): for a long time, because prior to

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Brianna Campos (she/her): my body acceptance like I was doing the body acceptance work.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But I still had movement, privilege, and I had, like I had community in my movement. You know, story I had. I had anxiety management. I had all of the things

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that I like. I was like. Oh, look! I'm doing it for all the right reasons. And then it wasn't until the pandemic.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): when I lost that community when the online just wasn't hitting it in the same way that going in was

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I was stressed because I'm trying to work.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and how quickly I lost strength and mobility

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and how quickly I started to go. I started to spiral. I started to

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to sit in that distress and be like, wait! I thought we did this already. We did this with body image, and that's when I realized, well.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): you're gonna do this for the rest of your life.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And what I had to come down to was.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): does my mobility

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Brianna Campos (she/her): impact my self-worth?

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Because for years

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that's how I felt about body image. And then I didn't realize. Well, now, I've just put on like well, but how like? Yes, you can be fat. But like, are you a good fat quote, unquote like, are you moving? Are you exercising? And so I realized in my work that I had to heal my relationship with rest first.st And we've talked about detail about that. And so I started to heal my relationship with rest, and then I ended up spraining my calf

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Brianna Campos (she/her): about a year ago, and so I have been on a journey to just

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Brianna Campos (she/her): feel like my ability to walk.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that has been so frustrating.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But what I can tell you is that

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Brianna Campos (she/her): healing my relationship with my body image has laid the groundwork

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Brianna Campos (she/her): for how to heal my relationship with movement.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And so I think that

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Brianna Campos (she/her): as long as we keep doing this work.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): this is why I do body. I mean. This is why I do business coaching was because I realized, oh, the same

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Brianna Campos (she/her): anxiety that was showing up in body images showing up in business, and how correlated that mindset work is. And I was like, I know, so many people who could benefit from this, and so, having the tools to be able to navigate through body grief

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Brianna Campos (she/her): can help you, whether it's business, whether it's movement, whether it's rest.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and if we can take everything as information

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Brianna Campos (she/her): instead of

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Brianna Campos (she/her): fact

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Brianna Campos (she/her): right like. This brings me distress. But like this doesn't mean that I am less valuable or less worthy.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That's how we'll be able to navigate it even better.

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Christine Chessman: And do you feel like you were saying that? Do you think it's

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Christine Chessman: okay to do both at the same time? So really work on your relationship with body, image and movement. Do you think it's best to start working on your relationship? Is there no particular.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I don't think there's a right way to do it. I don't think there's a right way to heal.

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Christine Chessman: No.

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Christine Chessman: And do you think it's kind of it's just a question, because I do think in terms of the bargaining? I think people kind of work in the relationship with food, especially if they've come from a disordered eating place. But the movement piece kind of stays.

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Christine Chessman: And they don't think it's a problem. It's not.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I know.

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Christine Chessman: And I'm just being healthy, and I'm just moving. But it becomes a problem when I and you know, or you can stop whenever you want, but they will push till the end, because they have to, because they just have to keep going because they need to. It's I see the behaviors.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So many of my clients. It's that inability to actually tune in and listen to see what their bodies actually need or want in that moment.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Yeah, I'm I'm you know, you're finding me in a in a season where I'm really into ifs, parts like internal family systems.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And I think that it all comes back to protecting the same part.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that the need to be thin, the need to be in a size, acceptable body, the need to be mobile and to work. It probably is coming down to the same part. And so for me, it came down to the part of I am more worthy when I am giving doing

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Brianna Campos (she/her): instead of just, I am worthy like I am worthy just by existing. And so it used to show up in body image.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and then it started showing up in business, and then it showed up in movement, and I'm sure it's going to show up again and again and again like that that can feel

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Brianna Campos (she/her): frustrating. But when you have tools to navigate through, we get to take the information at face value without it taking on fact.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): we get to highlight dissonance of you know. I know that the story I'm telling myself is that I didn't go to the gym today, and that's bad, and that I'm bad because of it. But that's not a belief I want to hold anymore. I don't want to believe that

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Brianna Campos (she/her): that's where the magic gets to happen. It happens in

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Brianna Campos (she/her): the distress, in the discomfort.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): That's how we get to move through it.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, my goodness, Hello!

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Christine Chessman: I you've got to go work with Brie. She's amazing.

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Ela Law: Think I do. I think I do. I'm just completely absorbed by the conversation. I'm just sort of, as if i'm, a podcast listener. Right now I love it. It's just so interesting. And it just made me think that this.

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Ela Law: how often we have conditions attached to everything that we do. There's no unconditional in anything, whether it's food or movement. There's always something attached to it, and it's so difficult to shed. That. Isn't it so difficult to let go of that.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Sure for sure. And then we get to ask ourselves, is, what what is that protecting? What is that part.

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Ela Law: Okay,

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And we might not be ready

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Brianna Campos (she/her): to uncover all of that.

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Ela Law: So it's a poll.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Wherever you are right now, today is exactly where you need to be. If you think of like 7 things of like, well, I want to be able to forget my bathing suit and not feel like a failure. I want to be able to not feel like a bad person, because I can't buy clothes in this store. I want to feel like it's okay for me to miss a workout day.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Pick the least distressful one to start with. Okay, because it'll give your brain evidence that oh.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): this is possible, and I'll end with this. I look back to my, you know my time through diet culture, and how I was so sure that I had found the right thing right, like I imagine people can look at me and my platform and think. Oh, she's just. She's just in a cult right like she's just. She's just brainwashed herself into believing this. And here's the difference is.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I believed what I did back then.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): hoping it would bring me closer to peace.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): And now in the largest body that I've ever been in

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Brianna Campos (she/her): being rejected by more people because of the stance that I take.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): I have never felt more peace with myself than ever before.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and that has been far more healing than having other people

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Brianna Campos (she/her): co-sign me, or, you know, like, you know, give me the the check mark of. I give myself the check mark.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and my life is so full and so beautiful and so big.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): and I've also had

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Brianna Campos (she/her): big grief.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): But both get to be true

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Brianna Campos (she/her): at the same time. It's not either, or it's both. And.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, bree! I think we're going to end it there, because that was just so beautiful. But for any listeners out there, if you are interested in hearing a little bit more about rest and our relationship to rest and movement.

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Christine Chessman: Bree. And I recorded A podcast a couple of weeks ago. So if you just scroll back a couple of episodes, you can

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Christine Chessman: but for now we're gonna say, a massive thank you to you, Bree, we're gonna put all of your details in the show notes where people can find you, where people can work with you. But for now, thank you, Bree, so much for joining us.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): Thank you both so much. I really.

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Ela Law: Thank you. Thanks for giving up your time. It's so lovely to meet you and to speak with you.

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Brianna Campos (she/her): You as well.