Eating Disorder Recovery IS possible, with Debbie Lesko

We had the absolute pleasure to chat to the wonderful Debbie Lesko - the person behind the well-known and -loved platform 'Diets don't work' @diets_dont_work_haes1 (Facebook and Instagram)

Debbie Lesko is a 69 year old grandmother whose passion is to educate people of all ages, sizes, race, sexual identity of the dangers of diet culture and the societal ideals to keep everyone thin. She fights the mainstream ideals with her page – Diets Don’t Work on Facebook as well as on Instagram. She currently has about 21,000 followers who look forward to her newest posts. She has been on podcasts and taught at seminars as well as writes articles for magazines. As a survivor of anorexia and drug addiction she has the lived experience to share her ideas with the world. Her recovery from drugs and anorexia has been her driving force to share her recovery with others. “If I can inspire one person it will all be worth it.”

We talked to Debbie about her eating disorder recovery and how finding the non-diet space was a turning point in her journey. Running her amazing platform and sharing posts with her followers is part of her self-care and continued recovery process. She is incredibly passionate about raising eating disorder awareness, and is determined to make the world a kinder and more inclusive place for everyone.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: Today Ella and I are talking to Debbie, Lasko and I. This was a conversation we're both hugely excited about. If you've been living under a rock.

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Christine Chessman: Debbie Lesko runs the page on Instagram, which is now called diets. Don't work. Here's 1, and she's got diets. Don't work on Instagram. She is an activist. She's a 69 year old grandmother, whose passion is to educate people of all ages, sizes, race sexual identity of the dangers of diet culture

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Christine Chessman: and the social ideals, societal ideals to keep everybody thin. And you know, she in the conversation it went directions that we weren't expecting. And you know. We talked about Debbie's eating disorder and the number of years, and that she has struggled with anorexia which she has struggled with recovery.

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Christine Chessman: But she has always found a way through.

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Christine Chessman: but knowing now that actually she may have one more relapse in her, but doesn't have another recovery in her. How things have changed for Debbie, and what she's doing in terms of self-care in terms of having her. Why, for recovery, having her, why, to keep striving forward and telling others of the dangers of dieting, and just keep it on going with intuitive eating.

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Christine Chessman: And we talk about anorexia, you know, and what it means to her, and how she's kind of changed her relationship with the anorexia part of her over the years which we might get into in a second episode. But just if you do struggle with eating disorders, please be mindful that we are talking about that today.

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Christine Chessman: But I'm hoping it's a conversation that resonates with you that lands with you, and we'd love to know your feedback. So enjoy the episode. Debbie is incredible, and I'm sure you'll you'll agree, and lots of love to you. Thank you for listening.


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Ela Law: Welcome back to another episode of find your strong podcast Christine and I are super excited to welcome Debbie Lesko today. Those of you who are on Instagram and on Facebook will know her behind the diets. Don't work

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Ela Law: handle. And yeah, we would love you to introduce yourself today, Debbie, if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what you do and where you live, and anything that you're happy to share.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Good morning. Good morning for me. Good morning.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I'm thrilled to be here. I'm excited to be able to share with people my story, and how I got to where I am. I am a 69 year old, grandmother. I have 2 wonderful grandchildren that are my life, and they keep me busy so, and then I have a job working at a school here in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and I take care of their lunch recess and lunch and recess time, which is a great retirement job. I I love it.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I was an accountant in my professional life for many, many years, and then I have

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Debbie Arizona USA: My social advocacy is for

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Debbie Arizona USA: diet, culture, and fat liberation, and because of my illness with or my recovery with

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Debbie Arizona USA: anorexia, I started. Diets. Don't work. In December of 2018, I was struggling to keep my recovery on top of things, and I said, I got to find a way to be able to

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Debbie Arizona USA: express what I'm feeling and get people to quit talking about diet culture. And so then I just said, Okay, I'm going to find posts. I'm going to post them on my personal page, and just go from there. And people loved it. They loved. I was doing and said, you need to create a page for this, and that's exactly what I did.

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Debbie Arizona USA: In April of 2019, I went, live with dies, don't work case one on Instagram and dies. Don't work on Facebook.

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Debbie Arizona USA: The whole platform is to be able to make people aware of the dangers of diet culture and how they affect us on a day-to-day basis.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Only.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, it's

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Christine Chessman: I mean what I was. Gonna we talked about this before we hit record, Debbie is. And I mean, maybe we're starting at the wrong point of your story, but it was like you said that you were struggling in 2018 with recovery, and I just wonder what was the difference, maker.

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Christine Chessman: and what has kept you going in recovery this time? That maybe was different to other times.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I've had anorexia since I was 17 diagnosed. I started my diet journey at age 6, but

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Debbie Arizona USA: so over the years I have been in and out of recovery many times, and the last 15 years I was very bad, and I had been in treatment centers 6 times, and this last time the 6th time.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I don't know what the difference was. Maybe I was just ready. I had a granddaughter at the time, and I didn't want her growing up in the in seeing me not eat, and seeing me in the hospital as many times as I would go in because I wasn't eating.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I dropped off. I was. I was very sickly.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and I didn't really care, because I thought I was fat. You know you always think you're different than what really is the accuracy of

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Debbie Arizona USA: body. Dysmorphia.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Debbie Arizona USA: So I only saw fat on my body. So when I went into rosewood, which is a treatment center here in Arizona.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I was sort of ready because I had. I was put on probation from my job.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and my anorexia started affecting my job, and I was put on probation, and so I had to go to treatment, or I'd lose my job.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I. My motivation became, I gotta get back to work, and I.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Still, doing.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Ela Law: yeah, I mean the the grandchildren. I was going to ask you this actually, how how much of what you are doing has them in mind to help

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Ela Law: to help make the world a less diety place in the future is that is that one of the the reasons why you're doing your work.

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Debbie Arizona USA: That's absolutely one of the reasons I mean, I didn't have. I didn't have my granddaughter when I went into treatment. I

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Debbie Arizona USA: I would have given up. I guarantee I would have given up because I was fighting it. And I said, I can't do this anymore. You can't put food in my body. I'm not eating, and then I would have to think about my granddaughter

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Debbie Arizona USA: and she, the treatment center, made this wonderful little picture card. They got pictures of my granddaughter and said, This is the reason. And they made it in a sign and put it in my area of this treatment center just to keep reminding me, and they made a little plaque that was for a little

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Debbie Arizona USA: like placemat, so that it was under my plate. When I would have to eat. I would see my granddaughter all the time, you know.

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Ela Law: On!

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Debbie Arizona USA: So that was definitely a motivation for me now, as far as continuous recovery as of like 2018, because that was 2017 when I went into my final treatment center and then 2018, you have all these ads like it is right now, or maybe a little bit earlier in December and early January is the push for you gotta be thin. You got.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Beautiful. You've got to lift weights. You've got to do all this stuff to make your body acceptable, and everybody should look the same. You know, it's it doesn't happen that way. And so I had to find that special nudge to go ahead and research dieting and fat liberation and body positivity, and you know I had, and I had

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Debbie Arizona USA: used it so that I wouldn't get pulled back in to the diet world, because I know that I may have another relapse in me, but I do not have another recovery in me. There's no way. I wouldn't do that again. But yes, I want to do it for my grandchildren. I want to be able to give them a world or helped give them a world that is free from this diet culture, and let them know that their bodies are okay, just the way they are.

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Christine Chessman: There!

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Debbie Arizona USA: Yeah, and I.

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Christine Chessman: You know, I think that really resonates what you said about for me, recovering from anorexia into a dieting culture is almost impossible, because you're you're getting completely mixed messages, you know. You're coming out of recovery, and you're being encouraged to eat more food. But all the images around you are promoting, chasing thinness, chasing the impossible body ideal, and it's

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Christine Chessman: to recover in a healthy way is really hard right?

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Christine Chessman: Of course.

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Christine Chessman: And it's I think it's accounts like yours, which help.

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Christine Chessman: you know it's Instagram for all what people say about social media has been such a source of support and help for me around eating disorders find intuitive eating through social media. And yeah, and I think we wanted to ask you how you discovered intuitive eating, Debbie, and at what point in your journey did you discover it?

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Debbie Arizona USA: I. In January 2,019, I went to a new dietician the ones from Rosewood had

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Debbie Arizona USA: discharged me, and I had to find a independent dietitian, and when I went to her she started talking about intuitive eating now

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Debbie Arizona USA: so many years ago, like, I think, 2,013, I was given a copy of that book in recovery, and I read.

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Ela Law: Oh!

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Debbie Arizona USA: And said, Oh.

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Debbie Arizona USA: this is good, you know I can do this. That's what I said. Then when I read it, and then when I got home from the treatment center. It was like Nope, I went right back into normal mode, so I wasn't totally unfamiliar with it. When the dietician

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Debbie Arizona USA: told me about it, but she worked with me in getting me to add more to my diet, to let me eat more, you know, and it was not easy. I'm not saying it was easy at all. In fact, it was very hard, because I still had the fear of getting fat, and

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Debbie Arizona USA: it was it was. It was great, but it was very, very hard, and so I knew about she would help me with the

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Debbie Arizona USA: principles of intuitive eating, and we'd go through them, and I'd say, No, I can't. This food is bad, this food is bad, this.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: That's you know. But here it is 6 years later.

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Debbie Arizona USA: And I am fully intuitive eating it is is amazing to me. And, as you guys know, I had a surgery done not too long ago.

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Debbie Arizona USA: my esophagus, which prevented me from swallowing, and

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Debbie Arizona USA: and so they fixed that in December, and there's a newfound freedom now, because I can eat just about anything I want as opposed to before. It was strictly soft. Foods. So

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Debbie Arizona USA: intuitive eating has been a part of this journey absolutely, but a lot of it has to come back to fat liberation. And knowing that my body is okay, just the way. It is because I get a lot of weight in recovery. And do I like it? Not particularly. But

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Debbie Arizona USA: I'm living now. I am living the life. I have a great life, my grandkids, my job. Just all of that. I think the difference from

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Debbie Arizona USA: 25 years ago, when my entire life revolved around what I was going to eat, what I wasn't going to eat, how I was going to exercise. Did I have another race set up for? You know, Marathon, or something, and that was my entire life. I.

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Debbie Arizona USA: So this has been obviously life changing.

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Ela Law: Yeah, very clearly has been. Can I ask you about

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Ela Law: all those years that you were struggling with anorexia? And you

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Ela Law: you sort of went up and down with it, and everything. Sort of thinking back on that time. How do you? What do you do to show yourself compassion for that time. What do you? How do you deal with all of those, I mean? Decades really, of being in that place?

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Debbie Arizona USA: Well, honestly, it's taken a lot of therapy to get to that.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Talking with therapists and realizing that I had.

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Debbie Arizona USA: it was the only coping mechanism that I could choose, or that I chose to help me deal with some of the pain of my past and my fears of growing up, and my marriage. I had a lot of abuse between my dad, and even my ex-husband. And so it's a matter of

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Debbie Arizona USA: working with a therapist and finding that compassion, it is so important to be able to find the compassion, no matter where you are in your journey, I mean

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Debbie Arizona USA: from years ago. Yes, to have have a compassionate self to look at what happened to me to now I have to stay with compassion. You can't just eliminate that part of recovery. It's yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I think that's I mean

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Christine Chessman: exactly what you're saying. But that's why you're here now because of those years that you battled.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: Battle. That's why you've that collective experience has made it possible for you to be here and to help so many other people and inspire so many other people. And I, you know again, my daughter recently is in recovery for anorexia, and she had it from she was 12,

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Christine Chessman: and that broke my heart because I know that the behaviors I displayed around her when she was little were disordered.

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Christine Chessman: and I know that that could have contributed to her.

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Christine Chessman: You know them falling into those patterns, and it's that's been a hard journey for me to forgive myself for and show myself compassion. But but it's

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Christine Chessman: I have done that because I know that, exactly like you. It was a coping mechanism for me, and it was the only way that I could manage my mind and everything that was going on so. And I think it's so important, Debbie, for people out there who are struggling at whatever point they're at to just be as kind to themselves as they can.

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Debbie Arizona USA: And that's hard.

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Christine Chessman: You know.

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Debbie Arizona USA: You know it. I know it. Ella knows it. You know what. It's something you have to really work at, and take the time to think about what you're doing. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Self-care comes into that and and believe it or not, I think dice don't work started because of a self-care mode for myself, because

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Debbie Arizona USA: trying to protect my recovery. And so, you know, that was a self-care activity for me.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and it continues to be the same even up to today, you know.

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Debbie Arizona USA: So

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Debbie Arizona USA: compassion is a really big thing, and I have such trouble with it, because I expect myself to be perfect a lot of times, and so compassion is a real difficult piece to pull into. My recovery.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, it is hard. But also, I think what you just shared is is a real good

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Ela Law: advert for actually seeking support. So you said you found a dietician who was trained in intuitive eating. You said you found a therapist that you could work through all of your pain and trauma with. I think it's really important to sort of acknowledge that sometimes we just need that support, and we can't do it on our own.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Absolutely I could. I would never have made it without people in my life. Both my family members well as professionals, and I had a recovery coach at Rosewood who I still in contact with, you know, because I can. If I'm having an issue or a problem day, you know, I can reach out to her and say, Okay, Shannon, help.

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Ela Law: That's great!

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Debbie Arizona USA: Oh, people are very important, and that's 1 of the things that I tell people. When they ask me, what can I do. And I, it's like, you know, watch your social media feed, get support people, and be around people who love you and support you. You need to do that. And then, just on eating with a dietician.

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Christine Chessman: Debbie, have you had any in terms of social media? Because we're talking a bit about fat liberation, which hopefully, we'll talk a bit more about. You know Evelyn Chibli always talks about intuitive eating being a social justice movement, really as it should be. Have you had any pushback on Instagram or on Facebook? Or has it been mainly positive

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Christine Chessman: comments and and feedback.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Always there are trolls out there. It's really hard to manage them.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I've gotten better at just saying bye, you know, and hitting the delete button block button, whatever it is, I've had death threats from people saying, You are killing other people, and I'm going to get you for it, too. This morning I had a post out on my page, and somebody replied with

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Debbie Arizona USA: How can you tell people to eat when they're killing themselves at certain certain weights, you know, and it's like, No, and she said, Would you give somebody drugs if they were in recovery from

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Debbie Arizona USA: Drug addiction. And it's like it's 2 different things. Food and drugs are 2 way different things. But yes, the trolls that I get.

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Ela Law: Jeez.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Are just horrible.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Do you get a lot of the

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Debbie Arizona USA: I mean, I have to be really diligent watching the page because it

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Debbie Arizona USA: you do get the trolls, and I want them gone, delete delete, you know. So it's it's a shame that it's out there. But there's a lot of push back. I mean, you guys, don't you? I mean, you've seen it. Have you seen it?

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Christine Chessman: There's there's so much misinformation out there, there's so much misinformation, I think, you know, isn't there, Ella? I mean.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I think, because we cure I curate my feed. So I'm I'm in the non diet bubble.

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Christine Chessman: I kind of think, oh, there's lots of us. But actually, we are a tiny little island, aren't we? We're just like this tiny little island of non-diet, you know, fat liberation, kind of health at every size there and then there's this

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Christine Chessman: like, and I think you don't realize that until you get the comments until you get the trolls until. But it's actually, if you look at the intuitive eating book which is now used to be evidence inspired, but is now evidence based with over 200 studies. There is no evidence that being in a larger body is detrimental to health.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Right. It's a cause, it's a correlation. It is not a causation.

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Christine Chessman: Precisely precisely that. And I think you know it's if you bring it back to the science. I think people, then that's the only thing that I ever do. If I get sort of. If anybody can test what I'm writing, I just kind of bring it back to the science, but it's so tough, and especially because you've got a huge following.

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Christine Chessman: you're going to get more of it.

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Ela Law: Yes, yeah, you know, because you've got so many followers and people. And that just means you get more, doesn't it? Ella?

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. So can I just ask you how much time? Because you're obviously you're working. You've got your family, your grandchildren. How much time does it take up to to run the platform and to look for posts. And yeah, how do you manage all of that? Because it looks like you're always there. You're very responsive. You're always posting. That must take up a huge amount of your time.

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Debbie Arizona USA: It does, and there are. It does. I probably bridge

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Debbie Arizona USA: 40 HA week on the platform.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Oh, on time!

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Christine Chessman: Grammy.

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Ela Law: Oh!

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Debbie Arizona USA: I mean, by the time I've researched the posts and decided what posts I'm going to use. Put the posts up on Facebook and Instagram answer any comments that happen on Facebook and Instagram monitor the trolls, as well as just keeping myself

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Debbie Arizona USA: motivated and looking at the posts for myself. And you can tell, you can sometimes tell where I'm out because of what the posts come out. But yeah, it takes a lot of time. And on Facebook I do the

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Debbie Arizona USA: caption description. So as soon as it's posted I go back, and I add the caption description,

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: To the post itself, because people got on me about not being inclusive enough, and you know I needed to add

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Debbie Arizona USA: something for people who may be

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Debbie Arizona USA: hearing deficient, or, you know, not, be, or see or see that because the automatic readers will read

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Debbie Arizona USA: the posts.

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Christine Chessman: And have you got really interested? Is there any goals? Have you got any goals for the page? Are you just going to see what happens? Are you just going to keep growing it? What is?

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Christine Chessman: What is your.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Keep growing it, you know. There was a point in

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Debbie Arizona USA: over the years here that I had almost 88,000 followers, and the account got hacked.

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Ela Law: I saw that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: And I lost a lot of people. And I'm now at about 21,000 on Instagram and

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Debbie Arizona USA: 40,000 on Facebook, which.

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Debbie Arizona USA: And there's a private group that I run on Facebook as well.

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Debbie Arizona USA: So yeah, it.

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Debbie Arizona USA: When I was at 88,000 people, there was probably more

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Debbie Arizona USA: involvement in what I was doing, as far as really researching everything. Not that I don't now, because I do, but it I wanted to see more action as far as more people involved. And so I was probably more invested in growing the page.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I'm still invested in growing the page where it's gonna wind up. I have no idea, you know.

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Debbie Arizona USA: doing what I'm doing and helping people as I can, and

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Debbie Arizona USA: you know I get messages, direct messages all the time. What am I supposed to do about this? How do I do this? How do I handle this? And I give them the best that I can give them, and then encourage them to get to a treatment, or a therapist or dietician to help more. And I make a lot of referrals to dietitians all over the world. And it's kind of a so I don't. I have any. Okay, this is where we're going to be in 10 years.

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Debbie Arizona USA: even even next year. I don't know, you know it's it is a.

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Debbie Arizona USA: It is a job, and I don't work.

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Ela Law: Say, yes, it is a job. I mean, it is a full time job. Given the hours you spend. So you just alluded to the fact sort of taking time to choose what posts to post. And you said that sort of it can be an indication of where you're at at the moment. What you're sort of focusing in on is that generally how you choose, what to repost, or how do you choose the post that you share.

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Debbie Arizona USA: It's I make sure that it aligns with intuitive eating. It aligns with health at every size, fat liberation, fat, positivity, the main focus of the whole account was started for eating disorder. Awareness. Instagram shut me down for 3 months last year because they said I was inspiring or helping help to get people involved in an eating disorder.

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Ela Law: Oh, my God!

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Debbie Arizona USA: Yes, right it was. It was horrible. They shut me down both on Facebook and on Instagram and

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Debbie Arizona USA: so that was very difficult, and took me back to do. I really want to keep doing this. But anyway, that's my main. That was my main focus when I started the account. And so it's it's still part of the platform and part of my main looking at things. What can help somebody who's in an eating disorder? I am more careful now.

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Debbie Arizona USA: as opposed to 6 months ago, on what I post because of Instagram's watching me, you know, and it happens because of other people complaining about it, too.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Last last September I was getting all of these. Somebody thinks you're sick. Somebody thinks you're, you know. Beware! Do you need help? Do you need help with your eating disorder, and I would get them 10 times a day, and it's like, Oh, my gosh! You've got to be kidding me, and I'm just trying to help people. So it's eating disorder. Awareness is the primary goal.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Know where to get help at. And then the other ones, because intuitive eating and health at every size, help.

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Debbie Arizona USA: help, recovery from an eating disorder.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Christine Chessman: There's been recently due to, you know, certain people being elected and all that kind of stuff. There has been a big change in social media. And you know the algorithm. And there's lots of people leaving Instagram and Facebook alike. But I sort of agree that my feeling is, I think you need to stay. I think we need to stay so if everybody leaves who.

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Christine Chessman: you know writes anything that is contrary to the popular opinion, then where are we going to be so? If you know, if all there's left on social media is misinformation about dieting and health.

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Christine Chessman: you know. I think it's so important to stay and to actually have a voice, even if it's trying to be made smaller, just to kind of pick keep pushing. Do you agree with that, Debbie?

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Debbie Arizona USA: It is a difficult

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Debbie Arizona USA: atmosphere on social media right now, with all the changes that are going on politically and socially, so.

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Christine Chessman: I'm here. I'm here, and I have to stay here because.

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Debbie Arizona USA: You know, despite the amount of time that I put into it, we have to. Somebody has to let people know, and I.

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Ela Law: No.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Those people that have to let people know that diets don't work period.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Simple statement. Diets don't work, and that includes things like lifestyle changes or wellness programs, or whatever you want to call it. If there's any kind of restriction, no matter how small or what composes that restriction. It's not going to work on a long term basis. And there's studies to prove that.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, my goodness! So many studies, so many studies! But I I really would love to talk to you about your relationship if you don't mind, Ella, with.

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Ela Law: Don't mind at all.

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Christine Chessman: Because I'm a trainer. So I'm I teach Pilates and strength training all of that kind of stuff. I'd love to know what your relationship with movement is like now what it has been like. You talked about marathons and running, and what has it been like for you? And how has it changed, Debbie?

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Debbie Arizona USA: Well, it has definitely changed because of health problems. I've you know, 69 years old. I've been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, so it's very difficult to move. I do as much as

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Debbie Arizona USA: we can now, but it has no ulterior motive to change my body. Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: the exercise, the running, the Marathons. The training that I did years ago

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Debbie Arizona USA: was all just to keep my body in shape and be.

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Debbie Arizona USA: you know, the word. Sit it. It.

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Debbie Arizona USA: When I 1st got into recovery this this last time.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I tried to run. I tried to get back out there I mean, I'm in Phoenix. I I moved to Phoenix from Pittsburgh, where it was really cold.

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Debbie Arizona USA: It's very

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Debbie Arizona USA: there, and Phoenix has wonderful weather, and when I got out of treatment I thought, Oh, this is great. I can go run, I can go walk. This is the perfect weather for this, and I tried for a while.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and I got on bikes. I tried to find the less

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Debbie Arizona USA: demanding exercising program, and it was still because I was. I was addicted to exercise. I I spent. I spent 2 HA day at the gym. Went to work, spent 12 h at work, 1012 h at work, and then came home and tried to eat something very small, but exercise was such a big.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Debbie Arizona USA: My disease, you know it was an exercise addiction.

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Debbie Arizona USA: It was hard to break that. But my body kind of said No, you you already long enough. You know we're gonna it's gonna slow me down.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I love to do.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I love to work out. But that isn't possible right now, with my body the way it is, and.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Debbie Arizona USA: So I had to basically recover from the exercise addiction because my body wouldn't let me do it anymore.

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Ela Law: Don't address

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Ela Law: yeah on that same note. If you don't mind me asking this with a chronic health condition, we're often told, you know you should not eat that you should eat that. How do you navigate that with your history with an eating disorder as well? Because you will have been told, you know, to stay clear of these foods, and that would very easily go back into that restrictive mindset of the eating disorder that must be incredibly difficult to navigate. How do you do that?

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Debbie Arizona USA: Sometimes it's very difficult, and I have to tell you like last April, when I had this this problem with my esophagus when it started.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I really had a hard time because I could not eat, and it the eating disorder went. Haha! See.

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Ela Law: Good afternoon.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Get away losing some weight, and I did lose some weight from the fact that I went down to just liquids and very soft foods, so eating a lot, and I lost some weight, and the eating disorder got very loud, and saying, Ho, ho! See, you know we can do this. And

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Debbie Arizona USA: so it took getting back in therapy, getting back with a dietician and saying, Okay, I need help. I think I'm slipping because of this physical condition. I have to find a way to eat whatever you know, whatever is necessary to keep the body functioning, because I knew I mean I was passing out. And it's like we got to fix this. This isn't working.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and the eating disorder just loved it, I mean. So it takes it takes some extra

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Debbie Arizona USA: push back for me when something like that goes. And of course you know the inflammation of rheumatoid arthritis. People say, you know, you need to be eating this. You can't be eating this. You can't be eating that. And I'm like, no, that's not true. There's no proof. There's no proof that eating something different will affect the inflammation in my body. You can't find it now.

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Debbie Arizona USA: you know I don't. I don't pay much attention to it, because, like I said, I've taught myself the the rules and the the I've looked at the research. I've done the research myself. And so I've learned that it doesn't matter, you know.

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Debbie Arizona USA: and and intuitive eating. Of course you guys know about the gentle nutrition of we're not saying Eat whatever. Yes, I am eat whatever. But

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Debbie Arizona USA: you know, when it comes down to it. You do what's best for your body. Yeah, if you like that food and it doesn't. It affects you poorly. Then maybe you need to change that, and I'm celiac. So I have to eliminate Gluten out of my diet. But there's lots of celiac alternatives, so if I ate gluten I would be very sick, and so I can't eat that. And it.

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Debbie Arizona USA: you know. So the tangible nutrition is basically learning what your body likes, and it with a chronic health condition. You can move around that with

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Debbie Arizona USA: you. Just have to listen to your body. And that has been a very difficult step in the recovery process, because

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Debbie Arizona USA: I learned to turn that off really good. During my anorexic days.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, that's that. You push it down and you push it down. You don't listen to it, you kind of, you know, and then it's it's suddenly you're going. Oh, where is the voice? You know that's, I think, for years you suppress hunger, you suppress it, you push it down, and then it's suddenly oh, what? And all the the signals come up. And it's like, Wow! Why do I listen to these new signals that my body's actually and it's it's such an amazing thing that when you felt

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Christine Chessman: when you're before surgery, when you could only eat the the soft food that you realize. Okay, this is

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Christine Chessman: affecting me, and I need some help. That that's huge, Debbie, isn't it? Because that's you knew that you didn't want to keep going down that path.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I saw that it could be a dangerous path for me, and because yes, I knew like I said earlier. I know that I have another relapse in me, but I don't have another recovery. I had fallen down that trap.

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Debbie Arizona USA: I'm afraid that I wouldn't be here today, you know, because it was very strong, and I got I reached out as soon as I

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Debbie Arizona USA: recognized it. Now that wasn't immediate. Obviously, I mean, I

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Debbie Arizona USA: okay, I'm eating what I can eat just to keep

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Debbie Arizona USA: some nutrition going into my body. But when I started losing the weight, I recognized that, okay, this is this is fighting my

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Debbie Arizona USA: stance to stay in recovery because I'm losing weight. Oh, that's kind of nice, but I had to. I had to get help, and that, you know I don't know how to.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Once you get in recovery. You can hear the eating disorder voice even more clearly, I think, than when you're in the throes of an anorexic or binge eating, or whatever you've got the orthorexia.

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Debbie Arizona USA: you you don't hear it as something bad.

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Ela Law: Hmm, wow!

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Ela Law: I'm just thinking about the recovery process. It sounds to me and I don't. Obviously I don't know what the previous recovery attempts were for you, but it sounds like you are very much more in a place where

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Ela Law: you are aware of the dangers of a relapse. And you are. It sounds a lot more sustainable as in I'm here. I'm comfortable in this place. I know the warning bells. I know the warning signs, and I can pull it back. So does that. Just does that is it. Does it feel a lot more secure in this recovery than it did in previous recoveries?

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Debbie Arizona USA: Absolutely, this one has definitely been more advantageous to my body and to my life.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Previous attempts like, I said, I was in 6 treatment centers over the years, and

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Debbie Arizona USA: I would come out. And despite my okay, yes, I'll do this. I'll do this

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Debbie Arizona USA: attitude. I was home maybe 6 weeks, and I was back into behaviors because life didn't change for me. My life was still

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Debbie Arizona USA: focused on work and exercise, and so those things didn't change. I make lifestyle changes not in the matter of food, but learning to manage the stress in a different way than I ever have. So it is more sustainable now, comparatively speaking, because

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Debbie Arizona USA: I just would go home, and I had no support, even though I had a therapist. I had the therapist when I would discharge, and

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Debbie Arizona USA: we would work together.

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Debbie Arizona USA: But the pain of the previous of of my younger years was so strong I didn't know how to deal with that, and I had to come up with new coping mechanisms, and this time I have I had, and the encouragement to

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Debbie Arizona USA: get those extra coping mechanisms. And now, with things like music. And

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Debbie Arizona USA: I've just started into some art projects. And it's, you know, and my kids, my, my kids, both my grandkids and the kids at school.

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Christine Chessman: I think this is just. We're going to have to sadly wrap up, which is very, very sad. But I really think that this conversation. I think we need another part to this conversation, because I'm really interested, Debbie, which is in how you see the eating disorder part. So maybe that's something we can delve into, because I've been in therapy a lot as well for my eating disorder, and it's I used to see it as an enemy. I hated that part. I hated it.

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Christine Chessman: and then I kind of made began to make friends with it.

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Christine Chessman: because I realized that actually there was a part of me was trying to help me cope with life with what I'd been through with what had gone on in my life. And it wasn't the way it was going about. It was not a healthy way, and I had to find another job for that part almost, and it made me think about it completely differently, because I'd always tried to push it away, push it away, push it away, not listen to it.

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Christine Chessman: whereas I just took a different approach.

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Debbie Arizona USA: That was good. That's really good attitude. There.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, cause it's it's something I'm really interested in talking to you about. So we'll we'll maybe schedule you in for Part 2.

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Ela Law: She come back on.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: And for me this whole conversation has been just showing that recovery is possible. But it's not linear, it is, you know, and it's okay. It's, you know, that it's not to punish ourselves even more if we struggle. You know that I don't know if you wanted to add something, Ella, to that.

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Ela Law: No, I absolutely love it. And I loved what you just shared with sort of befriending that eating disorder part. I've just done a training course on internal family system.

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Christine Chessman: As a therapy.

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Ela Law: Approach, and I think it's absolutely fascinating, and I would love to hear more about how you both kind of befriended that eating disorder and how you you made it part of your life and showed it compassion because it was just doing its job. It just got a little bit wrong because it made you feel very made you very ill, but it was trying to protect you from something, and I think that is such an integral part of recovery to

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Ela Law: to give yourself and that part compassion rather than continuing to fight it. And I'm hearing from both of you that you are in a place where that is possible, and that's what you're doing. So I think that's just lovely.

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Christine Chessman: And, Debbie, thank you. Thank you for coming on and for sharing so openly, and I'm just.

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Christine Chessman: We really really appreciate your time, and I think this conversation will be really important to our listeners as well. We appreciate you, Debbie. Thank you.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Thank you. One thing I just want to say, recovery is possible, no matter what where you are in life, you know. 20 years old, 5 years old, 40 years old, 70 years old, you know, and it recovery is possible. Don't give up.

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Ela Law: Wow!

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Christine Chessman: Bye.

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Ela Law: That is so inspirational and encouraging. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

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Debbie Arizona USA: Alright! Thanks.

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Ela Law: Thank you.