Grief and Body Image - Let's Talk About It!

This one was tough but I'm not one to shy away from hard topics of conversation. Ela and I spend our lives swimming upstream, and going against the grain in terms of our work with clients and the content we share with you.

This is a raw one.  As soon as mum passed away, body image dissatisfaction peaked in me.  Although it seemed so frivolous given everything we as a family had gone through, I understand now that it's my brain's way of coping.  It's a familiar coping strategy; a place where I can put my attention as everything else is just too much.

We chatted about why these thoughts resurface and are often exacerbated when we go through hard times and we both really hope it resonates with some of you, who have gone through such tough times of late or are currently struggling.  You are not alone.

Here are some resources that have been really helpful to me at this time of grief.

How to Move On After Grief - We Can Do Hard Things Podcast

The Movement Mentality - I'll Go First, with Missy Bunch

Unavoidable Body Grief with Bri Campos

How Thinking About Death Can Improve Your Life with Alua Arthur- Ten Percent Happier Pod

Resources for Support and Self-Care for Bereavement from MIND charity

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So welcome to another episode of the find your strong podcast. With Christine and Ella.

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Ela Law: Hello! Everyone.

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Christine Chessman: This week is a little bit different. So I recently lost my lovely mum she passed away about I don't know. 2 weeks ago now just over 2 weeks ago, and I kind of wanted to talk about

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Christine Chessman: my relationship with grief and body image, or how the grief process, losing mum the stress before, during and after has impacted my exercise routine. Why, I'm eating, how I'm sleeping, how I'm generally feeling about my body and any issues

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Christine Chessman: that I previously had with body image, and I just thought it would be really good and useful hopefully for other people out there who might be in a similar situation, or who might be going through a really tough time.

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Christine Chessman: and who have these thoughts beginning to rear their ugly heads again.

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Christine Chessman: just to be really open and frank and honest about it.

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Christine Chessman: Does that sound? Okay, Ella?

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Ela Law: That sounds wonderful. And I think it's fabulous that you are happy to to talk about it on the podcast because, I totally agree, I think that we really striking a chord with loads of people who listen because, you know, all of us have lost a loved one, and we will all be able to, you know. Think about how that has affected us. So thank you for sharing that with us.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, thank you very welcome. It's kind of I think I led it, didn't I? I just thought it would be. But I you know when I was able to the things that really helped me, I listened to a podcast with Missy Bunch on her story and a lot of her story was to do with the death of her parents, and the stories around that, and her feelings around that, and the impact it had on her life.

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Christine Chessman: and in terms of how she moved, how she took care of herself.

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Christine Chessman: and just the general emotional impact it had, and how it impacted, how her life went, and the career path she chose, and it just really helped to listen to her, speak so openly and honest about it.

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Ela Law: And.

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Christine Chessman: And hopefully, I've asked Missy to come on the podcast so hopefully she'll be.

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Ela Law: Would be amazing.

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Christine Chessman: And then.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Near Future.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I'll put her

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Christine Chessman: Oh, what's her name? Her pro or profile what do you call it? Handle? I'll put her in and her website in the show notes.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But yes, I I noticed. I don't know if you if I just sort of say a little bit, and then, if you want to ask me questions, I'll or yeah, or anything else.

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Christine Chessman: so immediately afterwards, I think you run on this adrenaline when something awful happens.

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Christine Chessman: and I know during the funeral, which in Northern Ireland is like the speed of light. It's like, Oh, quick, quick! Funeral! Pick the coffin! Let's go. One of my friends said, Oh, Christine, you seem fine, you seem so. You're coping so well.

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Christine Chessman: And I was like

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Christine Chessman: literally 3 days after. I don't know what end is up. I don't know who I am, where I am. I have no idea what anything's going on

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Christine Chessman: so, and I kind of realized that was a it was going to hit

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Christine Chessman: at some point, and of course my lovely body. The week afterwards I was just ill all week, which is no surprise.

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Christine Chessman: and I think. Only now I'm beginning to think about

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Christine Chessman: how I want to move. So it's interesting. I've completely changed in the way I want to move.

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Christine Chessman: And in terms of eating, I go through periods of wanting to completely restrict and periods to want to comfort, eat.

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Christine Chessman: and in terms of body image. I've struggled quite a lot, but I've also had that insight that

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Christine Chessman: this is not about what I'm worrying about. So it's not about the things I'm worrying about. It's about the fact that my brain's trying to help

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Christine Chessman: because it can't deal with the big thing over there. So it's going to go back to the old coping strategy.

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Ela Law: Focus.

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Christine Chessman: Internalizing and focusing on something else. So

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Christine Chessman: yeah, so at the minute, I'm very much

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Christine Chessman: at the beginning of it all.

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Christine Chessman: But yeah, that's that's kind of what I would say so far, so.

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Ela Law: What?

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Christine Chessman: Hang out.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I'm curious to hear how.

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Ela Law: How that how are you dealing with those kind of old behavior

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Ela Law: patterns and thoughts, sort of rearing that ugly head. How you just said it's important to notice that that's what's happening and that that's not what it's about. It's not about your body, and how your body looks. This is about grieving for your mum.

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Ela Law: How how is? But how is that affecting you? Noticing these things bubbling up again? Is that

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Ela Law: is that something that you feel like you've got the tools and skills to to deal with? And if so, what what do you do to deal with those thoughts and and behaviours.

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Ela Law: Does that make sense? Am I making sense.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. At the minute I'm just moving.

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Christine Chessman: So and drinking lots of coffee.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. So I'm I'm moving in a different way. So I think I did this in a post. I have a lovely contemporary dance class that I've moaned about on this podcast before, and I do as much as I struggle with it and dread it. I love it at the same time, really love it, because it's like my comfort zone. But I just as soon as she passed away. I was like, I don't want to do that anymore.

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Christine Chessman: And,

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Christine Chessman: I don't. I feel like I'm quite an emotional person. I don't know if you've noticed. And I just the idea of really slow emotional music and

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Christine Chessman: and dancing slowly and with feet! No, no, no.

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Ela Law: Did that seem too much too soon, too scared.

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Christine Chessman: Same.

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Christine Chessman: It's like I can't do slow yoga on the floor. No.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I cannot, don't. I can't even meditate at the minute.

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Christine Chessman: So it's I need to run. I need to punch things.

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Christine Chessman: Not people, not people.

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Ela Law: Well, you know I

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Ela Law: I could. I could come up with one or 2 people that you could probably.

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Christine Chessman: No, Ella, no.

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Ela Law: That's another, podcast for another day.

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Christine Chessman: That's another. Podcast. I went to a 1-to-one boxing lesson.

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Christine Chessman: Because I, you know, I'm on the plane. And I'm like, I need to go box something. So I booked myself a 1-to-one boxing lesson around the corner with an amazing Lgbtq plus instructor who runs a very inclusive boxing club.

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Christine Chessman: and I find myself apologizing for being straight, which I then was like.

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Christine Chessman: I quite like the fact that I was like. Do you let straight women join, and he said, Oh, I'm so sorry I should make it more clear. And I said, No, no, you don't have to apologize to straight women. It's okay.

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Ela Law: Like no.

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Christine Chessman: Okay, we can work that out. But it was. She was absolutely brilliant, and it was really full on. I mean, we were using the pads. We were kicking

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Christine Chessman: punching bags, and you know it's so graceful, and it's almost like dancing itself, because you got to do all the different moves. And yeah, so that is what. And I've booked 10 sessions. Now.

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Ela Law: Wow! And and how did that? How did that help did it help? And how did it sort of make you feel afterwards? What was the

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Ela Law: effect of of doing that sort of exercise for you.

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Christine Chessman: It's just a bit of you don't have to. You have to think about the move, so you still have to get out of your head and into your body. So it's very.

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Ela Law: Roommates.

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Christine Chessman: You know you've got to step in this foot. Turn pivot, kick with this arm, and then, you know, I've forgotten it all by tomorrow. But it's the idea. It's just you've got to go hard. You've got to really punch something, and you've got to use that energy, and and it almost helps you channel a little bit of that, because I always find when my dad passed away it was all this emotion. I didn't know where to put it. I remember having that feeling. Where do I put it all? I don't know where it's going to go. It just couldn't.

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Christine Chessman: And this is a great way of just

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Christine Chessman: getting out of your head for a little bit. It's not a cure, because it's at some point you really should sit with it and grieve.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But I'm not ready yet, and I can say that I'm not quite ready.

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Ela Law: There's no right or wrong way of grieving. Really. Everyone goes at it at their own pace, and it sounds really like a release. All of the energy that is pent up, that you're letting that out at the same time as getting out of your head and getting into your body, which

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Ela Law: which can be such a helpful thing, because you don't want to be stuck in your head all the time you want to be in your body, because that's the way that you're going to connect to your grief eventually, and how it feels in your body. And if you'd shut that down straight away, accessing it later on might actually be really hard. I think.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm, yeah. So you think that's a good thing, almost.

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Ela Law: I think it's well, I think there's no good or bad thing you pick what works for you. Some people might actually really want to do that emotional dance.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yoga lesson. I personally would say that I would probably be in your camp and just go completely nuts on a punch bag or something, because I know that even when I'm in a good place, when I do very gentle, Yoga, I can feel very emotional. So, having gone through someone that you love passing away

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Ela Law: and doing that I think that can feel really scary. So I totally get that, you know, doing kickboxing felt like

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Ela Law: the right thing to do for you in that in that moment.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, this. And it's such an interesting thing, because it was.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: I mentioned it as almost visceral. It was just like, I cannot dance right. I just can't do it. And it's it's I mean, I've I've transferred till next term, and I'm gonna sort of see how I feel next term.

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Christine Chessman: But it's yeah. It's a really interesting one. I was quite surprised, because it's something that I really

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Christine Chessman: look forward to dance.

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Christine Chessman: and I don't know if I'm trying to just withdraw a bit. I don't know by doing that. Maybe I'm just withdrawing because it's I don't want to face the people and the amount I don't know but we'll I'm just kind of going with it, and.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Seeing how it. But I would say, though, that this is not just about grief. I think this is about

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Christine Chessman: any difficult situation that we find ourselves in

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Christine Chessman: that. And I always tell people to think about how they want to feel when they move. And that's why I don't like really rigid exercise programs. I like a program where you can kind of build in a bit of flexibility because life does

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Christine Chessman: get in the way. And for many people.

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Christine Chessman: Certain forms of exercise will work at different times for them.

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Christine Chessman: Do you find that, Ella? Do you find at certain times you want to do, Yoga? You want to do

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Christine Chessman: more.

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Ela Law: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm not. I have to say I'm not always very good at noticing it straight away. Sometimes I notice it afterwards that I thought, oh, that was really good. Boot camp is one of those things. Sometimes I just really don't want to go, and I feel tired, and I feel a bit achy.

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Ela Law: and then I go, and I'm like, no, that was the right thing to do. I feel a lot better. So sometimes, having a bit of a routine is helpful for me personally, because it gets me to do the things that I know will make me feel better. But yeah, absolutely. I think you go through phases where you're really enjoying a particular way of moving, and then you move on to something else, and I think it it does have to do with your general frame of mind, and where you are, and how busy you are, and

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Ela Law: not, you know not. Everything fits at every time of your life, I think. But it's it's yeah, it

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Ela Law: a lifelong way of learning to understand what you need, isn't it? It's not something that we always know straight away. I think.

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely agree

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Christine Chessman: absolutely. And this is, I think, why I got so passionate about the whole lifting weights thing that you have to. If you're over 40, you have to lift weights.

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Christine Chessman: or it's

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Christine Chessman: not going to go well for you. I think it's much more complex than that. And that's not okay to kind of make somebody feel like crap if they're moving in a way that works for them. Because if they're moving, it's good.

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Christine Chessman: You're moving your body, and you're finding joy through it, or it's helping you channel something or feel better. There is value to that.

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Christine Chessman: and it shouldn't be pushed aside as like. Oh, well, you really should be doing this. That's not quite enough.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. That's really gone back into my mind in terms of body image. Now, do you ever do you have peaks and troughs with your own body image, or do you find you're fairly level these days, Ella?

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Ela Law: There's a personal question for you.

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Christine Chessman: Personal question.

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Ela Law: I think, on the whole, I'm quite.

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Ela Law: I've got to a place over the years that I feel like I'm reasonably level. But I can tell 100% when hormones are going Wonky, it changes how I see my body definitely.

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Ela Law: Yeah. But yeah, I think

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Ela Law: I think there's all sorts of things that can affect your body image. And as we just said, grief can be one of the things, and it's it's

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Ela Law: sometimes it is that old behavior pattern and thought pattern that comes back up.

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Ela Law: So I was actually going to ask.

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Christine Chessman: Science.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Find it yourself, if do you notice it? When things certain things happen, or if things are a bit more stressful, do you notice it? Then more.

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Ela Law: Because you're looking for a way of coping with that stressful situation that doesn't have anything to do with that stressful situation, because you're looking for a scapegoat that can't. Actually, you know that it's just. It's just so easy to to blame your body on everything, isn't it? It's just so easy, and we're so used to it. So dealing with the actual issue seems a lot more scary.

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Ela Law: So it kind of makes complete sense to me. But I was I was on that same note. I'm glad you asked that because I was going to ask you what.

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Ela Law: So what has helped you? I know this is all very fresh still. But what has actually helped you when those thoughts, those body image thoughts come up. So in case there's someone listening who's going through something similar at the moment, and is feeling very stuck in this very negative way of looking at their body.

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Ela Law: What? What has helped you to pull back from going down a rabbit hole and spiraling.

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Christine Chessman: So great question. Well done, and I I am.

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Ela Law: Do you see how I turn this question around.

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Christine Chessman: Very good.

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Ela Law: Reflected it from me, so.

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Christine Chessman: I would say, podcasts, so

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Ela Law: Right.

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Christine Chessman: Pick a good podcast. That is about. So I sent you A podcast from Glennon Doyle. We can do hard things, which is about ageism, and was about women.

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Ela Law: Oh, I love that one.

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Christine Chessman: Owning. Listen to it.

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Ela Law: Straight after you told me about it. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: You know, owning their invisibility from this, and being slightly countercultural and.

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Christine Chessman: Actually looking forward to getting older as opposed to sort of dreading it. And

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Christine Chessman: you know I don't know just falling for the bullshit and.

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Christine Chessman: Fixes that

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Christine Chessman: social media forces on us, and there's nothing to fix. So really, I just need a constant stream of that. So when I run, I just get a podcast. That I know is going to be about that particular topic, whether it's Sonia Rene Taylor, she's amazing, radical self-care. She does a lot on body image. And so just finding a podcast, which is on that topic that I'm struggling with.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Christine Chessman: Mind bounces so it might be like cellulite, it might be where it might be.

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Christine Chessman: Aging it might be God knows what.

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Christine Chessman: Whatever I'm struggling with. I just go right. Go to the sources that I trust put on a podcast let it sink in.

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Ela Law: And how do you find that? Then do you go to your do you have a range of podcasts that you then just search for particular.

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Ela Law: And this that's a great question. I think we should put some in the show notes.

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Christine Chessman: The resources on body image, especially, there's a number of podcasts which are hugely helpful.

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Christine Chessman: For body image. For, I mean, look at Brie Campbell. She's got both. She's got body grief.

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Christine Chessman: All about grief and body image, and the entanglement of both, because she lost her brother when he was quite young, and she was quite young. So it's.

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Christine Chessman: you know. I think there's certain people that I will gravitate towards. And these words always help me because they're living it. And they're not just talking. They're actually.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So that really helps. And just, you know, writing if I can, on the days that I can, I write.

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Christine Chessman: And just yeah, talking to people helps.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, what about you? What do you find? Helpful.

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Ela Law: I, my go-to is going outside.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Always always outside, either with or without dog, but I always find that whatever's going on, once I've been outside, had a bit of fresh air

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Ela Law: had some trees and some green around me. I feel better.

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Ela Law: so I'm not sure that sometimes my family says, would you mind going for a walk like.

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Ela Law: can you go out? So you feel better? It really does help me

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Ela Law: pretty much every time doesn't solve a problem if there is one. But it. It just

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Ela Law: takes the edge off and makes you.

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Ela Law: I don't know. It feels it makes you feel more connected and a little bit more grounded, I find being in nature and actually seeing well, things keep going. The world keeps turning, the birds keep flying. Yeah, you know it. It's actually quite a comforting thing.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: To see that. You know

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Ela Law: I find little animals are great, and that's why, you know, if you have pets, you're very lucky, and we have little gerbils, and even them. You know it, just watching them so excited. If you give them a bit cardboard.

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Christine Chessman: Like.

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Ela Law: Easily pleased, and it's.

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Christine Chessman: You know they don't care.

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Ela Law: No, no, wow!

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Christine Chessman: Look like they don't care.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Exactly.

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Christine Chessman: It is. You're right. It's something grinding about it. Isn't there getting that fresh air? But it's yeah. And I think it doesn't always every day is slightly different, and I think, but but the main thing is these are not really going below the surface. These podcasts and things. I understand that those are almost like sticking plasters.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And I think the real work is just. I call it flexing the muscles. So every time you have these thoughts.

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Ela Law: -

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Christine Chessman: Taken a little step back, and every time you take that step back, and you don't just go deeper into that rabbit hole.

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Christine Chessman: It's a victory, and it's your muscles getting a bit stronger.

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Ela Law: Oh, I love that.

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Christine Chessman: It's done.

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Ela Law: Flexing the muscle of taking a step back and sort of not being not being in that reactive mode, but being in the responsive. Okay, let me just see what's going on here for me.

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Christine Chessman: And this is something I've also been thinking about. It's the fixing.

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Christine Chessman: fixing that we're always offered. So it's the whole. And I think Glenn, and all referred to this as well. But it's the you know you're aging. So here's a fix. So you don't like your aging.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Or you know, you've got saying like, here's a fix to fix something which was never a problem before. It was invented by a industry wanted to make money off it. And it is so. You then go down that rabbit hole of looking for these fixes. And it's not gonna help, actually, because that's not the problem.

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Ela Law: Absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: It's knowing that, and taking a step back is really powerful. But it takes strength to do that.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: When we live in this kind of very much beauty, obsessed, and only one beauty ideal.

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Ela Law: Oops!

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Christine Chessman: You know, it's very hard to kind of

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Christine Chessman: stand on your own, and so it's.

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Christine Chessman: It's hard, I think.

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Ela Law: Yeah. Oh, God, yeah, it's really hard. And I think it's hard enough when you're not grieving, when you're grieving, and when something horrible has happened to you. It's even harder then, isn't it? And I think one thing to to just be a little bit mindful of, and to give yourself not just you, but anybody who's feeling a

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Ela Law: like, who's going through grief and grieving for somebody. It's the to understand how things are all connected, because when something terrible happens to you that has an effect on, as you said earlier on your eating patterns, on your sleep patterns, on how

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Ela Law: how you want to move, and that then in turn has an effect on how you feel about your body, how you feel in your body, because if you're knackered because you haven't slept.

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Ela Law: You're not going to feel good, are you? You're not going to feel energized when you're not eating regularly. You're not being nourished. You probably lack energy. You might get anxiety because you haven't fed yourself enough for your brain to function properly. There's all sorts of repercussions, and I think, giving yourself a little bit of grace and showing yourself some compassion for all of those things happening.

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Ela Law: But you know, understanding that

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Ela Law: it's just a normal part of it can probably be quite helpful. Would you say that is the case to kind of.

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Christine Chessman: I. Yeah, it's something I didn't really think about the sleep angle, but definitely, I haven't slept well since she got ill. Really, my mom, and it's very hard to sleep, because it's.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: Just your brain won't shut off, you know Adhd Brain doesn't help, and I think, in terms of food. You know where we were. Mum's care home was near this big

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Christine Chessman: like complex, a bit of Americanized Starbucks, and this this chain, called Tim Horton.

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Ela Law: Oh, I know of Tim. I've heard of Tim.

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Christine Chessman: I mean, it's so weird. It's so. It has donuts and chicken sandwiches, that's it, that is, I don't understand loads of donuts. And then, chicken, and I'm like what is.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: So I had so many chicken wraps that I.

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Ela Law: I just Northern Ireland isn't sorry. I'm, not gonna say that, but I never eat vegetables when I'm in northern Ireland, that is on me, because I generally go out for dinner, and that's

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Ela Law: bye.

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Christine Chessman: So it was just lots of chicken and not much vegetables, lots of Carby kind of cereal stuff, but that it was just funny, because the way we were eating was just so weird. You know.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah. But this is the thing. When you when you are, you're you're functioning on a different level.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Anything will have to do. You haven't got the brain space and bandwidth to actually think about what you're going to eat. And I think that also is important to give yourself a little bit of compassion for that. It's not a problem. It's just what it is.

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Christine Chessman: And you know, the one thing I would say is in terms of

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Christine Chessman: I think it definitely gives you a wake-up call or a bit of perspective. When you see somebody and I, you know, close to death.

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Christine Chessman: he has lost a considerable amount of weight. Bless her!

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Christine Chessman: You know. What what does it matter at the end? It really doesn't matter. You spend your whole life trying to squeeze yourself into a ship that you are not.

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Christine Chessman: and at the end of

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Christine Chessman: the the day. It matters nothing, it doesn't matter. So you think, Mom, at the end of her life was happy that she finally was the size she wanted to be. No, no.

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Christine Chessman: she was always the size that she should have been yeah, and absolutely beautiful with it, but never felt that herself, and that makes me really sad for her.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: He never saw that, you know. She wasn't a dieter, but she never liked herself.

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Ela Law: I don't.

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Christine Chessman: Did make me very sad for all of us collectively, that are

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Christine Chessman: spending so much of our precious time.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean when we're all completely individual, and we all have so much to offer.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: That we're.

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Christine Chessman: you know, when you kind of get that perspective, it's like, it doesn't matter, does it? It really doesn't matter.

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Ela Law: Gosh, that is so true. That's quite profound. Actually, because you you kind of

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Ela Law: you get that firsthand. Then when you see someone dying, you kind of think. Well, it really really doesn't matter. I've just seen that it it matters nothing at all. And why are we wasting our time

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Ela Law: making it matter so much when we have a life to live.

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Christine Chessman: And you know there's so many reasons for that, isn't there?

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Christine Chessman: Could go back over them. And it's very hard in this culture.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: To

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Christine Chessman: to find, to sort of carve out your own way, and to just be accepting of yourself. That's hard work, isn't it? It takes a long time, and I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't know if you're there yet. Are you there yet?

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Ela Law: I don't know. I think we're being told all the time that we're not

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Ela Law: there and not good enough, so it's difficult to fight against that constantly, isn't it?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, but I'm waiting for that. That age where you give, you know. People say you give 0 fuck. Excuse me.

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Christine Chessman: when you hit a certain age. I'm not there yet. I give. I give less, but I still give some.

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Ela Law: I don't. Do you think it's an age thing? Then I think it helps getting older to give fewer fucks. But I think

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Ela Law: you have so many people who are in their eighties, who still say, Oh, no! I can only have a little salad.

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Christine Chessman: True.

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Ela Law: You know it's not necessarily that age kind of, then gets you to a place where you're totally cool with who you are and what your body looks like. I think it still takes a bit of work and a bit of rebellion really, against the status quo. I think it's

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Ela Law: and age definitely helps.

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Christine Chessman: And the best way to rebel is with other people. Isn't it? The best way to rebel is within a community of people who.

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Ela Law: Lately.

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Christine Chessman: They are also rebelling against.

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Ela Law: Exactly, because it's it's very hard to do on your own, because we are swimming upstream.

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Christine Chessman: Rather than kind of going with them. The majority of people.

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Ela Law: Where the salmons.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, does someone swim up.

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Ela Law: Swim upstream, don't they? Is it? When they're trying to mate, or something? They swim upstream.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, Ella, look at you!

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Ela Law: I need to do a bit more research before I can kind of go into any more detail, but I think this will.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Made. But we we are the salmon that swim upstream, and

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Ela Law: there's not that many fish that do that, as far as I know.

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Christine Chessman: Why freaking, boring? Would it be just to swim the same way as everybody else?

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Ela Law: I know.

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Christine Chessman: But just just turn around.

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Ela Law: Turn around.

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Christine Chessman: So.

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Ela Law: It's up the up the river.

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Christine Chessman: Anyway. Thank you, everybody for listening today. And do let us know if there's any topics that you would like us to cover on the podcast, because we are here for it, aren't we.

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Ela Law: Oh, absolutely, absolutely love to hear from you. And hopefully, this conversation has helped some of you kind of deal with your own grief and the way that you're handling it, and the way that you are sort of

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Ela Law: looking at at yourself.

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Christine Chessman: And you know, I think, just take your time.

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Christine Chessman: You know. Don't try and rush anything. That's the advice I'd give myself and give to anybody out there who is struggling.

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Christine Chessman: Just take your time.

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Ela Law: Thank you, Christine, for sharing all of that with us. Really.

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Christine Chessman: Appreciate you. I'll speak to you next time. Bye.

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Ela Law: Bye.