What Does A Trauma Informed Yoga Class Look Like?

You may have heard the term 'trauma-informed' and been drawn to it, but maybe aren't entirely sure what it means.  Maybe you struggle with group exercise as you just find the environment triggering or feel uncomfortable saying no to hands on assists.  Maybe you'd like to try more in-person classes but just don't feel safe.

Maybe you're done with fitness instructors and their body shaming cues which always make you feel a little less than.

Maybe you feel entirely disconnected from your body and would like to be able to tune in and offer more kindness to yourself.  If any of these statements ring true for you, you are in the right place.

Doris Müllner is a Berlin-based non-diet dietitian and trauma-informed yoga teacher dedicated to supporting people in reconnecting with their bodies—free from weight stigma. With a compassionate, weight-inclusive approach, she guides clients toward intuitive eating, self-trust, and sustainable well-being. Her work centres on body respect, mindfulness, and the belief that health is not determined by size. Through online yoga classes and 1:1 sessions, Doris creates safe spaces for healing and gentle movement, helping individuals move away from diet culture and toward a more liberated, embodied life.

Ela and I know that you will LOVE this conversation and find it as enlightening as we did.  Have a listen and drop us a text if you enjoy the episode.

You can find Doris here:

https://dorismuellner.com

Körperakzeptanz-Podcast (Body Acceptance Podcast)
https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/koerperakzeptanz

Online Yoga Studio
https://dorismuellner.com/online-yoga-studio/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/foodfreedomflow

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: You are gonna love this chat today with Doris Milner. Excuse my pronunciation of that.

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Christine Chessman: That name. Doris is a Berlin based non-diet dietician and trauma informed Yoga teacher, and she is dedicated to supporting people in reconnecting with their bodies free from weight stigma, which is like music to warriors. She has a compassionate weight, inclusive approach, and guides clients towards intuitive eating, self

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Christine Chessman: trust, and sustainable. Well, being now what we talked to Doris at length about was trauma, informed Yoga, and feeling safe in your body, and what it means to feel safe, and how everybody's different. We talked about what a trauma informed yoga class actually looks like, why, it's so important to talk about consent, and just really what it means

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Christine Chessman: to be trauma informed as a practitioner or a teacher. I think you're going to really love this episode. We did, and you know we tried to keep it short. But you know what we're like. We go off on tangents. But please take a listen. You are going to love Doris, and you know, give us your feedback. Let us know what you think. And yeah, without further ado. Here's Doris.

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Christine Chessman: Welcome, Doris! How are you?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Hello, Christine! Hello, Ella! I'm I'm great.

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Ela Law: Nice.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Happy, happy to be here.

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Christine Chessman: Well, we were. We were speaking just before we hit record about how we love a tangent and we tend to go off on various tangents.

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Ela Law: We're very good at tangents.

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Christine Chessman: But we are very keen to talk to you. I listened. I've been listening to your podcast as a way to improve my German, which used to be very good at one stage, not at the moment. But I listened to an episode about stress, and it's been something that I've been doing a lot of work around recently in terms of my body, how stress impacts, what's going on in the body? Because I struggle with Ibs. And I've got various kind of chronic conditions which

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Christine Chessman: I'm wondering. Maybe I can get a hang of those if I just

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Christine Chessman: somehow manage my stress a little bit differently. So obviously, we want to hear about all of your stories and how you came to be in this space. But that's that's the topic that I thought would be really interesting to talk about, Ella.

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Christine Chessman: Thank you.

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Ela Law: I think it's super important, because it comes up with literally every client you know, I always have in my

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Ela Law: intake form. I always ask how stressed you feel on a scale of whatever.

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Ela Law: and the majority feel very, very stressed. And that could be because of, you know, their coping skills or the general situation they find themselves in. Obviously they get to me because they struggle with eating, which can be stressful in and of itself. So yeah, we'd love to sort of quiz you a little bit about how you integrate stress reduction in your practice. Maybe. What kind of things you've got to to share about that.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, and and also completely, personally, if you don't mind, because it's be really interesting, are you? You present us very calm, which I don't.

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Christine Chessman: And I'd love to know. Is that how you feel? Do you feel quite regulated? Obviously nobody's ever regulated all the time. But do you have techniques that you can.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Go to, or have you got so anyway, I'll stop talking, Doris over to you.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Here I am. Yeah, that's a great question, because I feel like in general, I would describe myself as a calm person, but I'm also not all the time, and there is a little bit, probably sort of a difference between the professional and the personal me. But the good thing about my work is that, as a trauma informed Yoga teacher that I do something that sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): calms me down, and so that's very handy, so I often have it. I mean, I had it just 2 days ago, when I had my Monday evening class that I just didn't really have a great day, and I just sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): felt like a day that could have just gone differently. And then, after the Yoga practice, I was just sort of felt, really recharged and felt different. And that's often something that happens so that sort of.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): A lucky, lucky life, choice in a way.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): But I also am a big sire. So I'm I'm a

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): great believer in size, so I just it can sometimes be a bit sort of confusing for people, because when you sigh, sometimes people think you're sort of you know, it's like a silent complaint or something like that. And I've had sort of interactions where people felt like I was sort of sighing at something that sort of bothered me. But that's something that I do that I feel like just regulates me a lot, because, you know, when we exhale it triggers our parasympathetic nervous system, which is responsible.

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Ela Law: For relaxation. So that's just something that I do. Just a big fan of the old exhalation, which is something that everyone can do in their space.

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Ela Law: I love that. And I remember that I took a few Yoga classes with Doris over the last year. And yeah, the sighing was strange at first, st but when I surrendered to it, I really realized how

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Ela Law: how it brought me right down, and how lovely it was to just just let go, but do it with a sound just exhaling. With a sound. It was so different, but really, actually quite different from just breathing. So yeah, I love that I really really enjoyed that.

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Christine Chessman: But

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Christine Chessman: it's something that I always start my classes with them. Take a couple of breaths so in through the nose, and then

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Christine Chessman: I always sigh because it's for me that just it just releases something. It's exactly that. And it's interesting. It's only something that I've really come across very recently.

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Christine Chessman: But it's but when you you know on that note, when you had a class on Monday.

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Christine Chessman: how did you before the class gather yourself? So if you're feeling quite just, not in a good space. How did you, then? Did you sort of speak to yourself kindly before the class? You just go into it? How do you prepare when you're not feeling

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Christine Chessman: grit?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I think just stepping on my mat. And in my space is kind of this I automatically focus on. Like, you know, I'm turning into sort of professional mode. And so I just my focus shifts. And I just, you know, I sort of, I think my just creating this mat as a safe space is already sort of, you know. I step into this safe space. So just whenever I'm on my mat. This is kind of I know something

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): you know good is going to happen, or just you know, I'm sort of the focus is a little bit on on feeling, and not so much on thinking, and I think it just sort of this transition, you know, when I set up and you have. So you have these kind of rituals that you go through. And I think just these kind of is this slow transition that I don't actively do something about it. But it sort of happens as I go along, but there are. There are times when

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I have a workshop in the evening, and I get anxious a lot, and I just then lie down and sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): say an affirmation to myself. And so that's something that helps. If I don't really have a practice to to go to.

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Ela Law: I love the the mud being a safe space.

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Christine Chessman: I love that.

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Ela Law: That's really, that's really lovely, actually. And I'm wondering. So if you this, this is obviously your safe space. You know you get on the mat. You put your professional hat on whatever. But also this is a space where you know. Actually, I'm safe here. How do you deal with people for whom the mat might not be safe. Because I personally find Yoga.

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Ela Law: it can be really emotional, depending on what postures you do when you do hip openers or throat openers. You know. I know that for some people that can bring up a huge amount of emotion and trigger them into like feeling really intense feelings. How do you

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Ela Law: with the trauma-informed lens? How do you deal with that? And how do you make sure that the mat is a safe space for all the people that take your classes as well.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I think, for this, the home practice really sort of lends itself because there's no one else around you. I see the challenge in a sort of offline Yoga practice where someone might be, you know, just a few inches away from you, which I really really don't like. I like the personal space as well. So I think that can be challenging. But I think you can. Then there is practices in the offline space to then, you know, decide how many people you want in your class, or just

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): setting things up. But I think in general starting, and this is something that's so important to me having this being in this sort of non-judgmental space and guiding people through it that there is no.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): there's no goal to achieve. There is no way that something needs to, or a practice needs to look like or just really understanding that you're in charge, and that you can say this is how deep I want to go, or this is, you know, I'm stopping at this point, or, as you said, if an emotion is arising, maybe I want to step out of it, or maybe I can just observe it. To just give people agency, which is such an important thing in the trauma, informed space

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): to decide what they want to do. And the the online space is really great for that, because they can stop at any time. You know, you don't have to deal with the social element of leaving a practice. So I think just really working in it. This can be a long process, because we don't live in a world that is sort of judgment free. But to just understand that, you know, even some days your balance is a little bit wobbly, all part of the practice not going into this. This is good, and this is bad. So just neutralizing things.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: yeah. And it, I, I think Covid has been, you know, one of the things that has been nice that Covid has brought which very few things. But is the online space and the growth of the online space. Because I think a lot of people suddenly have find movement that that they enjoy and an access point that works for them. So they're actually able to work in that safe space from their own home

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Christine Chessman: and not feeling judged, and have, you know, being able to set up your own space and being able to. There's a certain performative element when you're in a class. You don't just act as if you would at home. So I always.

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Christine Chessman: I love an online class, because when I'm actually in a class, I act slightly differently, even though I'm trying not to. You. Just do, because you're aware of other people. And you're not really. I'm not really aware of where I'm at.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: In the session. So I find it. It's been a lovely thing, sort of a hangover from Covid, but it's continued, for a lot of people, hasn't it?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I think also, then you don't go into peer pressure as much which is really important for injury. Prevention, right? That you don't push yourself or that you can. Yeah, I mean, you can let out a fart, because that happens a lot in Yoga. And it's just, you know, you just sort of do whatever you want. And then that's that's it. So yeah, I absolutely agree with you.

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Ela Law: Hmm, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, it's good. It's good to normalize the farts, isn't it?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Oh, absolutely!

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Ela Law: Love it needs to go needs to come out. It's just gonna cause havoc. If it stays in.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah, yeah.

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Ela Law: Well, that's

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Ela Law: point actually, with the online stuff to what I've noticed since I've been doing more online classes is that I listen more to my body, and I stop when actually things are too difficult, whereas if I'm in a I'm a show off, you know, when I'm in my boot camp class, or when I'm doing a class I'm like, look at how Bendy I am, and I'm not. But you know I want to show off.

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Ela Law: and not necessarily consciously, but

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Ela Law: you know, it's 1 of those things. It's the competitiveness. But when you do it online you might not even have your camera on, it feels a lot safer to really just tune in and to listen to what's going on.

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: What I wanted to ask is, maybe it's from a slightly different angle. It's for me when I'm when something is when emotions are particularly raw or difficult. I want to run away, and so I want to run, or I want to box, or I want to jump up and down or do something high, impact, intense

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Christine Chessman: rather than slow down and get into my body. And at what point

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Christine Chessman: do you need to do both, or is for some people, is it? You know you've you go between them, don't you? Sometimes you need to activate, sometimes you need to rest. And so sometimes your nervous system needs that stimulation, and sometimes it doesn't.

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Christine Chessman: How do you find that person personally? How do you navigate that.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): That's interesting, because it's something that I hear from a lot of people that they struggle with the stillness that might come with Yoga.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And I think, as you said to, it's often it's a great sort of way to release stress to, you know. Do some activity, because if we look at the fight and flight modes that are sort of 2 responses of stress. They both are physically active. And so if you are physically active, like you're running or you're fighting. It can sort of release all that sort of build up energy from the body. And that's why a lot of people enjoy maybe a more dynamic Yoga class like Vinyasa.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): where they move, and then at the end they can rest a little bit. So that's a lot of people find resting at the end easier than sort of resting in the beginning or meditating in the beginning.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And I think it's sort of if that's your way to find into it. That's great, because I think to sit those people down and say, you rest for 10 min. Don't do anything. They would just that would be way too much. They would sort of be really anxious. And but I think just finding that sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): weigh into a bit more. Stillness is really good, but I think often you maybe need the or maybe quite beneficial, a little bit of the opposite to have, you know. If you feel like you're very active person to rest a lot, whereas I'm a bit more of a restful person, so I need to be a bit more sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): force myself to be active a little bit more so. I feel like just sort of find the opposite piece. But at the same time, you know, everything is valid, and I find that often we talk quite negatively about our comfort zone. But the comfort zone is so important as well. Right? Because this is our safe space. This is where we feel comfortable. So

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): some days you might be able to challenge this more than on others, and I think that's perfectly fine as well.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, I do love that because it's such a society we live in as you've got to do more. You've got to be more. You've got to be better. You've got to keep growing. You've got to, and I've always thought I can't stay in my comfort zone. I've always got to be pushing beyond it and pushing out of it. And it's lovely to think, actually, sometimes it's

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Christine Chessman: that it's okay to stay in my comfort zone that's absolutely fine, and not to judge myself for especially when you're having a hard time in other parts of your life that really serves you, doesn't it?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah, we speak to ourselves often so harshly. And you know we're so strict, we're so critical with ourselves. And to me the comfort zone. Always I envision it as this. I have this corner on my sofa that I can look at right now, and it's sort of this sort of space where I am with a little blanket, and this is my physical comfort zone. But also I envision my sort of mental comfort zone that way, and to not have this sort of cozy little space where you can just be. That would be feel like, really feel like something's missing.

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Christine Chessman: Do you want? How do you feel about that, Ella? Do you? Are you a person that's you? Find it hard to go into stillness. Or how do you.

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Ela Law: I don't know. To be honest with you. I think I used to find it harder because to me, stillness symbolized

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Ela Law: basically not being productive and not doing anything. But I've got a lot better with that now, because I'm just tuning in a little bit more regularly and listening more to what? What do I actually need right now? Is it active, or is it not?

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Ela Law: But I love? I love that. You know the the idea of having lots of different tools in your toolkit. So when you need stillness, and when you need that kind of that that kind of

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Ela Law: more quiet and more

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Ela Law: internal kind of work. Then, if you have that available to you likewise, if you do need to let out some energy, and you want to box a punch bag, or whatever it is, or run or do a hip workout that you have options. I think options are really important, because you can't just assume that one size will fit everybody, you know, having lots of different tools in your toolkit, I think, is just really important. I think my worry is that

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Ela Law: when you, when you do struggle with any sort of anything traumatic, whether that is like a bunch of small t traumas that have accumulated or large trauma that not a lot of people will be able to guide you

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Ela Law: through that and and give you something that might not be even more triggering. So I'm really keen on hearing a little bit about how trauma informed. Practice is different. What like in a very sort of literal way, what do you do? That's different from from other Yoga teachers that will

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Ela Law: hold that safe space for people. Because if you just go to any kind of Yoga class, I wouldn't be necessarily sure that that is a safe space for everybody, because it's just not. Yoga is not Yoga, and not every teacher is the same. So

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Ela Law: can you tell us a little bit about how that would look different when people come to your class.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Absolutely. Yeah. I get the ick in Yoga classes. So there's a few things to to look at, or a few sort of practices for one consent is really really important. So this is more about offline practices. So I, when I do have my offline practices or offline classes, I have little consent cards that are face down, so they are sort of unknown. So I do hands-on assist. I don't. So there's a lot like

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): in Yoga, where you people get pushed into a certain pose which I don't do. I just place my hands on someone's back, or maybe if I see a really high shoulder, but I just place it. I don't

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): push anyone because it also gives me. I have quite a lot of issues with it. But anyway, so I have these consent cards that are on. No. And if I explain what they're about, and I tell people, you know, if you, if it's a clear yes, turn them over. If it's a maybe I would leave it at a no, and they can play around with it, and it's nothing personal. So I set the space. So one consent, setting space, so making also

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): so giving people, guiding them a little bit into it, saying, You know what I what I'm doing in this mat. It's an invitation that you can do if you choose not to follow. If you need a break, I'm not going to question it. So just

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): that is really, really important. I think just setting the space because a lot of people like you said they perform or they don't know. They feel like they need to follow, and so on, and so forth. And this still happens, and I see it still, and I'm trying to work against it. But at least sort of from my point of view, or from my teacher's perspective, even though you know you often hear there isn't a hierarchy, and but there is a hierarchy, I mean, it's sort of an outspoken one, but it's sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): it's still I I know what I do. Most people will follow. Yeah. So

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): just being being aware of of your role consent cards. Just I think people sometimes say, if you don't want to be touched to say, no, this is not like this is not a sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): very low effort. One like you just need to. And it needs to be nonviable. It needs to be really clear consent. So I think that can apply to any practice where there is physical contact, and you can still, even if someone says No, I think you can still do whatever you practice. You just don't need to physically touch them, because some people, just

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): for whatever reason they don't want to. And that's okay, also not questioning that. So that's 1

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): and the other one is just agency. As I spoke about. So also telling people that you know they can. They can choose to do certain things and not do certain things. So this is really, this is such a crucial part. Because when you look at Trauma. People didn't have agency, because it's something that happens to you. You didn't have a choice in it, right? So just giving them the choice which I think, can. Sometimes I have it with people where they're sometimes a bit confused of what that means, and you know.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): but this is sometimes also a practice that takes a little bit of time to understand, because you come from a different mindset into this. And suddenly it's trauma informed. And you're a bit confused.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): So that's that's really important. And even though there might not be people that have any trauma, we just sort of think that people have a trauma and sort of try to to

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): help everyone or just be available for everyone. And then the other part is the the nervous system, the autonomous nervous system. That's the one that we sort of try to regulate in a trauma informed practice.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): So that can be because we might feel quite anxious, or we might be depressed, or for whatever reason, we're not really regulated. So we get little spikes that go sort of into over regulation or under regulation, and then we have practices to help people come into a more sort of regulated state, and these might all be practices that you don't even realize that someone's doing. But they're sort of helping you. So one thing is grounding.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): That's just sort of just getting in contact with something that is on the ground. So if we're sitting. It could be the soles of your feet. If you're sitting in a cross-legged seat, it could be the sit bones. When you're lying down. It can be your backside. So this is also something that I do sometimes with clients just in a coaching session to sort of arrive right? So this can be something that you can do literally anywhere.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Other practices is just self touch. If people are comfortable with it, placing hands on your body or giving yourself a hug touching yourself because it brings you back in the moment, because we're often, you know, sort of.

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Christine Chessman: Cool.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Thinking about this future event, or this past event, or what happened, and all these practices bring you back into the moment, which is sort of what is really helpful when we look at trauma informed practices

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): any kind of swaying movement. If you look at sort of a distressed child, what do you? Do? You hug it? You'd sort of take it in your arms and you sway it, and that's something that worked with your sort of nervous system at the time, and it still works now, and it's great if you have some a loved one that can sort of hug you and do all that to you, but I always say there's always one person that's always available, and that's you. So you can do these practices to you. It might be strange to hug yourself and to sway from side to side.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): but we sometimes do it when sort of unconsciously so. To do it consciously can be really powerful.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): But I also implement that in a if we're dangling, you know, standing forward fold, you can dangle around. So I'm just, you know, wherever you want to dangle. You're more than welcome to dangle what else? Just orienting. So that's often also a ick of mine. People tell you to close your eyes, which just you need to feel really safe to close your eyes, because, you know, you're looking at exits. There's many, many things

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): so just giving people an invitation to open them or close them, whatever they want to do.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): and then, if they open them after meditation, for example, to just look around and maybe name things that you see to just once again be present in the moment. So just

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): these are a few things that we do, and all of them presenting them as an invitation that someone can choose to accept or choose to decline, but sorry, and both are equally, you know, to each other, equal to each other. So not so saying, I remember this is something that my the teacher that train with, said she said to those people, thank you for sharing and thank you for not sharing, because, you know, you want to sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): treat this as a better sort of response to the other. So yeah, those are some things that sort of came to my mind.

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Christine Chessman: This is fascinating to me. I did a course in trauma, informed Pilates, and I think Pilates is quite different in many ways, but obviously has similarities, but I trained in Pilates during Covid.

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Christine Chessman: so there was no hands on. We did not do any hands on, and that's how I trained so before that I was aerobics and kind of personal training. So it was quite different. But in the actual Pilates classes I never learned how to do the hands-on approach. So I have kind of stayed a bit back from it.

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Christine Chessman: just because, you know, people tend to feel less comfortable.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. I just tend to shy away from. I'll go over and kind of give somebody sort of, I'll say. Oh, if you want to put your hand on your knee. You know I won't actually go and touch them in a class, and I know that's the other extreme.

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Christine Chessman: But I do find that in a class some people say, Oh, yeah, it's fine, and that's been always been something that I've wondered about with consent. And I love the way that you do that, because people will go. Oh, no, it's fine, but they don't mean it, and that the idea that you don't have to, you know you're opting out unless you turn it over. That's a lovely thing.

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Christine Chessman: because it's you're not making any. You don't need to move. So you don't need to do anything, and you'll know that actually, this person doesn't want that assist. I absolutely love that approach. And one thing I wanted to talk about I don't know if cueing is a thing in Yoga as much in terms of the trauma formed approach. But we have. We've got a lot of exercises in the Pilates repertoire which are quite triggering to people.

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Christine Chessman: and the cueing of these exercises, and we had one which was a spine stretch forward. I often talk about this, and the cueing was. Imagine somebody's holding you back while somebody else is pulling you forward so somebody's got their arm around your waist, pulling you back, and that in itself could be really traumatizing for somebody.

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Christine Chessman: So you know the cue I think about I talk about a beach ball, or imagine folding over a beach ball or a, you know, making it just a cue that is not going to. That's going to be visual, perhaps, but isn't going to

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Christine Chessman: just cause any distress to people. It's quite. It's quite hard, isn't it?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah, I mean, there are those cues. There's some weird ones out there, like sort of, you know. Hug your ribs in and whatnot. It's like, what how do you do that? That gives.

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Christine Chessman: I think, just in general like that. I've never heard that, but it gave me a little goosebumps, that kind of someone else holding you back.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Just nicely.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah, I just always do cues that, you know. I feel like a very accessible, I hope you know, like, if we do a sideband. Let's just think of, you know. Imagine you're reaching something from a shelf, or whatever.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): But yeah, I think just in general, making these cues

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): not sort of problematic and just very clear as well, because not in this sort of more meta level of whatever you know, hugging, hugging something in that you can't hug in. And I find that's just not very accessible to people, anyway.

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Christine Chessman: What do you think? Coming from? The non teacher? Lens, lens.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I find that really interesting. And I was going to comment on exactly what you commented on with the cards, because I think that's such a good idea. It's a passive. You don't have to make an active decision, to say no to something that you don't want. It's almost like someone's made the decision for you, because it can feel really awkward if you're the only one who doesn't want to be touched or doesn't want to be corrected or moved in a different position.

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Ela Law: So you often sort of just do it, because, you know, you don't want to make a fuss, or whatever it is so I think that is, it's a brilliant idea. I've never seen that in any class that I've attended in person.

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Ela Law: And

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Ela Law: yeah, the the queuing is a funny one, and I have. I think I probably have only just come, become more aware of it since I've worked for body image fitness and sort of done different classes, that

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Ela Law: that it's for some people it can be really difficult to hear stuff. And I've done that when when I've done guided meditations with breath work where you breathe into your belly, and I've had feedback from some of my clients who said I found that really challenging, because I hate my belly. I don't want to think about my belly, and I certainly don't want to expand it, because I think it's awful as it is, so

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Ela Law: I'm always conscious of that now, when I guide people through stuff like that.

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Ela Law: you know, is it? If it's in a 1-on-one I can talk about it. But if it's in a group setting, you really have to be careful because you just don't know what someone's background is, what someone's going through, what someone is dealing with. So yeah, I think it's really important

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Ela Law: to happen.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I think I think it's always also, be it be open to, you know. Change your approach. It's really important, because if you just go down this route and say, this is how I always did it. And then, you know, gathering new information, thinking, Oh, yeah, I didn't think of it that way, but I can certainly see it. And just seeing these this as an opportunity rather than you know, sort of

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): something negative which can happen a lot. But because, like, for example, these consent cards, I handmade them with 2 types of paper and wrote on them like, it's just, I didn't spend

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): good. Yeah.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): spend €3 on this, you know, get really nice ones. And but if you just it can, everything can be done on a low budget or in a very kind of easy way.

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Ela Law: Yeah, you just have to have the idea, don't you? You have to come up with it. You have to think about it a little bit which you clearly have.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I think it's also sort of making sure that if you're going to say good job you don't go. Good job. One person you don't say Oh, you're not doing that right to you very much. If you're going to say good job or well done, you either say it to everybody, or

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Christine Chessman: you don't want to single people out in that way. I find that for myself. If I go to a class, you know, I find that quite upsetting if somebody sort of goes. Oh, Christine, you're not doing that right, you know. I find that there's a way to do these things, and, as you say I'm always learning, and when I started in fitness I used to say, this is the easy option. This is the harder option this is.

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Christine Chessman: And now, I don't use that terminology at all, because it's nothing to do with that. They're all options, and you choose the one that works best for your body on any given day, and it's because we're all completely different. But that took years for me to actually learn.

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Christine Chessman: I just say I absolutely love that about your classes, and when I did the 1st class with you my brain was going well, which is the hardest, then.

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Christine Chessman: to do that.

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Ela Law: Artist.

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Ela Law: because that's that's how I apparently do exercise, anyway. But yeah. So I was just looking for which which one is the hardest, but you would just not give it away. You were just like, no, just these are the options you pick, and I love that. I really got used to that idea, and it makes you feel

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Ela Law: It makes you feel safer because you don't feel like you have to compete with everybody. You don't have to pick one option over another, because it'll be better, or you know worse, whatever it is.

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Christine Chessman: It is also that thing. I'm sure, that any movement is good movement. It is valid. It does not have to look this way this way this way. It's what works

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Christine Chessman: for you and your body. And I think that's and I know that that's how you teach as well, Doris, because I've heard great things about your class. I haven't actually done your class yet, which is ridiculous. But what I wanted to ask you about was talking about the non diet space. So this I think this all ties in together. But when

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Christine Chessman: were you ever in the diet, not the diet space? But were you ever more immersed in the kind of this will tone your body. Do this, you know. Were you ever in that space, or did you always approach it from a

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Christine Chessman: kind of a non diet lens.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): So as a dietician, I have, as someone would say, a degree in diet culture. So there's that. But I think the Yoga space. I came to it from a non-diet space, and actually looking back, the teacher that I had for my 1st training, which I we didn't have the best relationship, but she was actually in a larger body, and that was never luckily was more of a

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): spiritual Yoga practice. So we didn't have this kind of toning and.

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Christine Chessman: For now.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And all that kind of stuff, luckily, wasn't taught. And so it's never. And it's also nothing that I ever really

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): sort of was interested in when I did my sort of random, trying a practice here and there kind of before before doing my training. So, luckily for the physical part of it. It's never even though I wasn't consciously in a no diet space at the time. Luckily it just never sort of never touched Yoga. And oh, sorry there's some more drilling.

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Ela Law: Can't hear it.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Second, and luckily never. I was never in a in a sort of diet space for that.

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Christine Chessman: That's great to have, you know, not gone in with that, and then had to pivot. You kind of just came in with a I like. I really enjoy that. But in your experience with colleagues, have you seen that that's not usual in

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Christine Chessman: the world that you kind of teach in, or is is it a bit of a mixed bag?

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Christine Chessman: Because definitely over here it's very much

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Christine Chessman: and swimming against the tide. So we're, you know, most Pilates teachers will talk about toning, and you know you'll get in 8 weeks. I'll show you a different body. Let's work those abs. Let's let's it's summer coming up. Let's tone those. That's the language that not all teachers, but a number. Certainly it's quite a common commonplace.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I think in in the offline space it's not so present, but I think it shows itself in different ways. When you look at you know what the teachers look like and stuff. So is it inclusive? Not really. But I wouldn't say, I think maybe because I'm in Berlin it's a bit of a different space. But I'm sure you can find you can find your summer body sculpt program and whatnot. But I think this is maybe more of a Pilates than a yoga thing. Maybe Yoga is

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): a lot of the times bit separate from it. But I would say in the online space, for sure, if you look at Youtube. And I think you know when you do when you're a freelancer and you look at SEO and Yada, and you do your keyword research, like Yoga for weight loss is one of the top things.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): and if you just use words like sculpting and toning, and all those stupid words, I'm sure my hits would, you know, go higher, but I don't want to do that, and you know I'd rather be in the small little bubble there than in the big bubble sort of working for the bad guy.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: We talk about that a lot. It would be a lot easier sell.

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Christine Chessman: If you know, because I have so many clients coming to me going. So my goal is, I want to lose this amount of weight and tone up before summer. And I'm like, I'm not really your person, you know you're not going to enjoy, because that's not what the goals that I set. And you know, I think there's never a judgment there, because I was in that space for many, many years. But it's more that, you know. It's

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Christine Chessman: I'm telling people, for if you're you're in it for life, you can get stronger for life. It's less sexy, you know, obviously more sustainable and better for you. And

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Christine Chessman: but it's it's not that 6 week transformation. It's not that immediate, you know, instant gratification. I'm going to look completely different. And because that's not something, I think fitness instructors, Yoga teachers, Pilates instructors should ever guarantee, because you can't

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Christine Chessman: sorry soapbox.

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Ela Law: No, but it's so true, isn't it? It's the

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Ela Law: it's that sell, isn't it, that people often just exercise and move their bodies because they want to control their bodies, or they want to lose weight, you know. If you ask someone, you know, would you stop exercising if it hadn't got any effect on your body. I think the majority of people will probably say, No, yeah, probably I wouldn't do anything, so I think it's really hard to swim against that. And you know there's the term Yoga body, isn't there without a reason? That's been coined by those people in that industry who

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Ela Law: who are selling something that, as Christine said, is just not achievable for the majority of people. And that's really toxic. It's really damaging.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I'll just

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): simply false false information to say you can turn your like, have a slim waist with that movement. It's just.

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Ela Law: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Wrong morally, but also like.

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Ela Law: Yeah, be wrong. But actually, yeah, exactly.

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Christine Chessman: And you can't spot, reduce fat loss. You can't kind of go. Oh, I want to lose weight here and here. But if you go on the Internet. It suggests you can absolutely. You can just do this exercise for you. I've got a question, and you can absolutely say, No, I don't want to answer that. But from a personal point of view.

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Christine Chessman: have you always had? How has your body image always been fairly positive? Has it been something you haven't really spent a long time thinking about? Or is it something that you've worked on? Or

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Christine Chessman: how would you feel about that, Doris?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I would say my body image journey was maybe a bit different, because, as a sort of 1012 year old, I was diagnosed with vitiligo, which is an autoimmune disease, where you have parts of your skin that don't have a pigment. So they're sort of white.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And that was so. I was for most of my life I was in a small body, and so that that part of the body wasn't really my problem or my issue. But more sort of my skin was kind of something that I dealt with, and there was a time, and that was before all the social media. And now the representation is so much better, and I think it would have really helped me at the time.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): but I was sort of hiding my skin. So in the summer, long sleeve and long trousers, which I know that many people can relate to that to hide, and

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): the challenge with my skin condition is that it's unpredictable. So currently, I'm sort of it's increasing. But it can stop. It can go back. You just don't know. And it's also a bit of a seasonal issue, because in the winter you don't really see it, because my skin is light. So there's not really much of a contrast, but that my skin tends to tan quite quickly.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): So now, even even now, in sort of end of April, you can see in my hands the sort of the contrast.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And so that's something that I struggle with. I also have a bit more sort of body hair, and darker hair. So that's sort of something that I struggled with, and it was

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): probably took a quite a long time to come to terms with this, but also at some point that was as a teenager where I didn't hide as much, but I still wouldn't show something like my shoulders, but maybe show my elbows, so it slowly, gradually start to show my body more. And now, you know I'm not. I wouldn't say I'm 100%, but I'm definitely way more comfortable with it, and just choose to wear what I want.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): And now kind of not proud of my vitili, because it's nothing that I did anything for, but sort of just neutral about it, really. And I've also my, I'm not in as small body anymore. I wouldn't really. I wouldn't say I'm in a large body. I'm maybe sort of in the midsize ish area. And so that's a little of a more new body for me.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): the same.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): But I feel like I also know that I'm mentally and physically the healthiest I've ever been. So that's just something that I drew a conclusion from that. You know, this is this is where my body might change. My skin might change. But I know that you know I have a good relationship with it, a good relationship with food. And that's really all that matters to me.

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Ela Law: That's such a wonderful place to to be in, because I think so many people struggle with that. And what just what you highlighted for me is that you know we often obviously talk about because we're in the non-diet space we talk about weight as the thing, but it's actually highlighted that it doesn't have to just be about weight. It's just as soon as there's something different

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Ela Law: that you feel like you have to hide, because it

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Ela Law: it might cause people to ask questions, or it might just feel uncomfortable.

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Ela Law: And yeah, it's interesting how that has taken you quite a while to get to a place where actually, now I'm fine. I'm cool with who I am and what I look like.

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Ela Law: That's a lovely place to be.

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Christine Chessman: And I think it is just that thing. That's a really good point, I think, even if you do get to the point, I've always sort of said this, if you get your dream body and inverted commas, what happens then? What's what's next? And you know, in my experience it jumped for me. I was like, Okay, yay. Oh, I've got the weight that I wanted now. Oh, no! Look at my nose, or look at my, you know. Look at my hair is awful, or Oh, I need to. If you, if you don't work on it, it just

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Christine Chessman: jumps. Do you know what I mean? It's you can't get away from it.

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Christine Chessman: I think, by just by losing the weight. It's not going to suddenly give you confidence. If you don't have that confidence. To begin with.

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Ela Law: Yeah. Your body's not the problem, right? It's this.

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Christine Chessman: Just looking for some.

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Ela Law: Thing, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. And it's which is a hard lesson to learn. I think it. As you're saying, Doris, it takes quite a long time to come to terms with

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Christine Chessman: yourself in all your glory. You know it's I know that this is your body, your home, your space, and it's

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Christine Chessman: that takes a while.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think it's just. It's hard, because it's so normalized to dislike your body or hair, whatever you know yourself that it's just you don't realize that it's actually not healthy and not normal.

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Ela Law: Yeah, that's a good point that it's normalized to to hate things about you because it gives you something to talk about. And you know we feel like. If we like everything about us. It makes us conceited, or it makes us, you know, just weird. You know the normal, the what's it. Normative discontent is a big thing when it comes to body image, right.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, hello! We have work to do, don't we?

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Ela Law: Well, we have.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, my goodness, Doris were if we wanted to work with you, what is the best way for us to find you? And do you have anything coming up? Any offers, anything, any workshops, anything.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Hmm.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): so you can just find me on my website. You might be confused because everything I do is in German. But I

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): I do speak English, so I can also do one on one in in German. But I did. At the beginning. I was working more in English, and then I sort of niche down into German. So most of my stuff, my my group stuff is in in German as well, so a 1 on one would. Probably it's sort of the best thing that I could offer an English speaker. If there's a German speaker, they can, you know, join a

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): join the online Yoga studio that I have, or if they're in Berlin, we can. We can exchange contacts. But I don't have anything at the moment coming up. I'm sort of just going through through the year.

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Christine Chessman: Why is your English so good?

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Yeah, cause I'm just incredibly smart and.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Good on.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): No, I think I was always a bit sort of interested in languages, and maybe had a bit of a sort of it just came easy to me, and my partner is actually English. So that's why I, you know, have a maybe a tint of a British accent.

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Ela Law: You'll take.

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Christine Chessman: It was such a running joke when I lived in Germany for a couple of years, but every German person, just as soon as they heard any accent for me, started speaking English to me. And we're just beautiful English. Just we're like what is going on, because that is not the situation in this country, is it, Ella?

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Ela Law: No, the Germans love speaking English, though I even hear my brother and my dad sometimes talk English to my children. I said, No, no, they need to speak German with you. That's the whole point. Yeah, it's very strange. But yeah, I think the Germans and the Dutch and the Austrians. We all learn English from from a young age. And I think it's just yeah part of growing up these days.

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Ela Law: Yeah. So if you want to practice your German. Go seek out Doris, or, if you otherwise have a lovely one to one with her, because she is fabulous. But, Doris, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. And as always, we've run way over time because it was just too interesting

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Ela Law: always is. Yeah, we'll put all of your details in the show notes so that people can get in touch and follow you on Instagram. And yeah, just check out what you do. And I can personally highly recommend your classes. They are amazing. So yeah, that'd really love them.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Oh, thank you, thank you so much for having me. I had. I had a great time.

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Ela Law: Lovely thanks! Dorca.

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Doris Müllner (Food Freedom Flow): Thank you.