From Gym Bro To Myth Buster. A Conversation with Michael Ulloa

Michael Ulloa * is well known on social media for myth busting nutri- and fitness-bollocks - he gets posts every day from concerned followers that found yet another load of nonsense in their feed. 

Moving from gym bro to myth busting was a gradual process for Michael, as was changing his own relationship to movement and nutrition.

We had such a good conversation and talked about how fitness doesn't have a look, how flexibility can lead to consistency and sustainable habits, how we have normalised unachievable body 'ideals' and how shifting your focus when it comes to exercise can make it joyful rather than punishing.

We also touched on steroid use in the fitness world and we recommend you listen to his podcast episode on this topic - here is the link!

*"Michael Ulloa is a respected online personal trainer and performance nutritionist. He is a speaker, writer, content creator and the host of the How to: Fitness podcast. He tackles common health and nutrition misinformation whilst promoting a more inclusive, accessible approach to health and fitness. Michael is passionate about helping people to improve their health without the pressure to conform to unrealistic body standards."

You can find Michael on Instagram @michaelulloapt and get in touch with him via his website 

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So this episode I think you are going to love with. I'm not going to pronounce his name right. Ella and Michael U. Joea.

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Christine Chessman: I thought it was a lower, but I think it's a Spanish name, so.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: He does say it on the podcast. So.

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Christine Chessman: But I really enjoyed that conversation. I could have kept going, which is no surprise. What did you think, Ella?

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Ela Law: I loved it. He's so easy to talk to, and I really love his sort of common sense approach to fitness and nutrition, and the fact that, you know he freely admits that he sort of moved from Gym. Bro. To mythbuster over a period of time, and is quite open about the fact that, you know.

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Ela Law: you know, 10 years ago things looked quite different for him than they do now. And yeah, I thought it was just really really interesting his approach to movement and to food. And how?

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Ela Law: Yeah, you know not.

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Christine Chessman: I wasn't sure if he would be kind of pro weight loss, or we'd be having sort of discussions about that. But please listen to the episode. There is nuance around every subject, and it's a really interesting approach that he has. So I urge you to listen to the episode. Give us your feedback. Let us know what you think like share, follow, subscribe all of the above.

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Christine Chessman: Okay, and we appreciate you very much.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: Enjoy the episode, and we'll see you next time.

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Ela Law: Hello, Michael, really, really nice to have you. Thank you for giving up your time to chat to us today.

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Michael Ulloa: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

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Ela Law: Good. Excellent, so are we, because we. I think I speak for both of us, Christine. We've both been following you on the socials for a while, and absolutely love your content, particularly the myth busting. It just makes me chuckle every day, and also makes me put my head in my hands and shake with disgust what is out there? I'm actually quite interested how you get all of that information, because I think my algorithm is now so in a bubble that I don't even see all that shit going on anymore.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, I'm I was. Gonna say, I'm really lucky. Maybe I'm not lucky. I'm lucky that I've now built up a bit of a following for calling out misinformation that I get sent so much stuff now. So my, I think my phone thinks I'm quite unhinged with some of the stuff that I want to watch on social media. So yeah, I get sent every day like 4 or 5 clips that are probably worthy of being called out. So yeah, it's good in terms of creating content. Maybe not good for my mental health. But it's it's good. We gotta we gotta keep kind of fighting back against the misinformation.

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Ela Law: Oh, absolutely!

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Christine Chessman: And that that must change your algorithm. Then, as you're saying.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, it is. Honestly, some of the stuff I see is just I. Now I don't go on social media for enjoyment at all. I literally go on it for work which feels a bit sad because I did used to really enjoy going on social media. But I go on it now for work purposes and for

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Michael Ulloa: kind of chatting to new new connections. And yeah, I can't enjoy it. Enjoy it as much. I use other platforms more for enjoyment now rather than Instagram.

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Christine Chessman: And it is that idea I was sort of toying with the idea of leaving Instagram altogether, because I just find it a little bit toxic. Use that word that spanzied about. But it's more that I think you're absolutely right. It's about calling things out and.

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Michael Ulloa: -

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Christine Chessman: And actually staying when it feels uncomfortable to stay because of that, because actually, it's this misinformation.

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Christine Chessman: Called out, and the more.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, doing that.

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Michael Ulloa: And like most of the videos that get sent to me as well is usually from people saying, Is this real or like, should I believe this? So it's not just people going. Haha! This is funny. Can you take the picture out of it like it's people genuinely being kind of hoodwinked people being scammed out of their money because people are willing to exploit kind of misinformation, or any confusion around

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Michael Ulloa: supplements, nutrition, advice, the way our bodies are supposed to look all of these things. So it's yeah. That's why I keep doing it. I I receive so many. I have so many more positive conversations through social media than I do. Negative, despite kind of a lot of my content, maybe focusing on the on the negative side of things.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is super important. And and thank you for sort of taking one for the team here, because

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Ela Law: I think it's great what you do absolutely. I just watched a reel just before we came on of this woman eating a raw steak in the car.

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Ela Law: And I just

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Ela Law: why is that? Why is that even confusing to anyone that that is not a good idea. But people are so confused because there's so much nutribolic and nonsense out there that you really don't know what's right and what's wrong anymore. What's what's okay? And what is complete nonsense.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, we don't. And even like I consider myself fairly clued up on nutrition. I know the research quite well, and even still, sometimes I'll see something, and I'll be like, oh, like, is that the way it's supposed to be so? If someone who is kind of deep in the research of nutrition is still being confused by some of the messaging that's put out there. How is someone who has no nutrition? Training has maybe been kind of fed a lot of disordered eating and exercising advice in the past. How are they supposed to navigate it? They just they just can't.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. So. How did you get to this place? Did you? Were you always a little bit sort of critical on what was out there. How did you? How did you start.

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Michael Ulloa: Not really. No. I was definitely in the kind of Gym Bro camp when I 1st started off. Mostly because that's what was the way. I was told fitness was supposed to be right like you train to be a personal trainer, and.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Michael Ulloa: You're shown like, right? This is how you help people lose weight like that's just always what you're taught. As soon as you train. I definitely enjoyed kind of reading men's health, muscle, and fitness magazine all those things. So it definitely distorts your view of what health and fitness is supposed to look like. And so when I 1st started off.

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Michael Ulloa: kind of putting my foot into the fitness scene and then working as a personal trainer, I was very much. Everyone should count calories everyone should take before and after photos like I. Definitely, that was the approach that I took. And it's.

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Ela Law: Isn't it.

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Michael Ulloa: That was over a decade ago now, and it's just been a slow evolution. It's not like one thing that changed that caused me to take the approach I'm doing now. It's just been a slow evolution of

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Michael Ulloa: working with so many clients and following fantastic people on social media and within the research base that are showing. Oh, actually, the way that we've been told to do things actually are quite damaging and problematic. And it's just yeah. Been a nice snowballing effect, really, of all the things that I've learned and experiences of working with people.

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Ela Law: Was there a moment. Sorry, Christine. I'm just asking all the questions.

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Christine Chessman: Ella! Oh.

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Ela Law: I'm just so curious. I just want to know so much stuff. And was there a moment? That sort of pivoted you into this kind of arena was there, can you? Is there something that you can pinpoint and thought? Well, this is enough. I can't do this any longer.

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Michael Ulloa: Not really. I guess if there was one moment I was. There's a couple of previous clients of mine, Sophie and Yvonne. If they hear this. They'll know exactly the moment I'm talking about. I created a piece of content, and it wasn't. I wasn't intentionally trying to shame people or anything. But the way I worded it was like you need to.

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Michael Ulloa: the way you exercise and eat should be. I can't even remember the wording of it now, but it wasn't good. It was something about like your kids are watching. Therefore you really need to be aware of your behaviors and this kind of thing, and I think I just worded it in a really bad way. I mean, they were 2 clients of mine who were also friends, and they both messaged me at the same time being like, I don't think this is as helpful as you think it is. And that was like a real moment of like. Oh, actually, maybe the messaging that I've been told the messaging, I think.

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Michael Ulloa: is supposed to be helping people isn't helping people. And that was a good

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Michael Ulloa: 6 7 years ago now, and I think that was probably the the moment that I started to delve into a bit more the research around kind of eating behaviors and eating disorders, and all this kind of stuff that you realize. Oh, actually, I think there's another way that we can do this that is actually beneficial to the general population.

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Christine Chessman: Out of interest. And just because I'm very nosy. Did you in the past ever struggle with any disordered eating or disordered exercise behaviours, or not so much.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, I would definitely say I had some elements of body dysmorphia. When I was kind of 1st starting off in the fitness world, I wouldn't say that I had an eating disorder by any means. I don't think it was that severe, but I definitely was very rigid in the way that I was eating. I wanted to track every meal down to the calorie and Macro for a good.

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Christine Chessman: To.

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Michael Ulloa: 3 years, because I was worried that if I didn't do that, then my progress would be would be kind of null and void. I definitely obsessed about the way that my body looked, because once again I was reading muscle and fitness magazine told. If you eat and exercise like this, you will look like this person in the magazine, and I think back to that moment now, and

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Michael Ulloa: all the pictures I had on my phone of physiques that I was striving towards. They were all taking steroids. I didn't know this.

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Michael Ulloa: but they were clearly clearly taking steroids, so, no matter how hard I worked, no matter how hard I kind of tracked my macros, I was just never, ever going to achieve that look that they were telling me that I needed to achieve.

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Christine Chessman: And this is really interesting to me. So how do? What is your approach to nutrition and fitness personally? Now? So if you kind of.

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Christine Chessman: yeah, just just yeah, tell us everything. Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: So wow, so in terms of exercise at the moment. So I I have a 2 year old and a recently fairly newborn baby. About a month ago, so at the moment it is now just kind of do anything that I.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Michael Ulloa: Whilst I have the energy to do so. But if I kind of putting aside, if I may go back like 2 years ago, before I had my son. I do triathlons. I've done ironman events, marathons, I love strength, training. I still do it 3 times ish a week. Now, when I have the energy to do so, and so I still very much love pushing my body and seeing what it's capable of. But it now comes from a place of

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Michael Ulloa: this is exciting to see what my body is capable of, rather than punishing myself for looking a certain way, and that's how my approach to exercise has changed over the last 3, 4, 5 years in terms of nutrition. I'm always of the opinion that every food can be part of a healthy diet, so I literally consume everything that my body allows me to. I haven't tracked Macros personally for

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Michael Ulloa: 5 years or so now, because I have no intention of doing it. Yeah, it's quite flexible. The approach, I take now it kind of bends and and changes, depending on what I'm pushing for in terms of exercise. It's yeah. It's just quite laid back, is probably the best way to describe it.

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Christine Chessman: And in terms of the movement. This is, I find, this so interesting. You're saying you train sort of 3 times a week with strength training. And then, if you can, if you get the time for it, how would you feel on a week where you don't get the time for it. Does it impact your mental health, or does it? Are you just like chilled? Oh, I'll do it next week.

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Michael Ulloa: Really chill. So this is actually a perfect example. I haven't worked out now for 8 days like this very rarely. I don't often go through periods like this. But, my son, my oldest son, has been sleeping really, really badly.

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Christine Chessman: No.

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Michael Ulloa: And it literally has just been surviving the day. And I definitely don't feel as good when I don't exercise. But I also realize that it takes a very long time to be kind of

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Michael Ulloa: become untrained again, like I can have a good kind of 2, 3, 4 weeks if I didn't do anything like it would be fine. I could jump back into it pretty easily. So I think that just comes from experience, and knowing what my body is capable of now, like I just know that it's actually better for me, mentally and physically, to have a bit of time off whilst my body recovers from next to no sleep, and we

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Michael Ulloa: and when I can, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And that I think that is a really important point, because I I kind of work with clients, I would say intuitively. So we sort of think about. I always sort of. I don't like the word consistency, and as somebody who's a personal trainer, that's a bit weird.

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Christine Chessman: but I don't. I have a number of clients who are neurodivergent like myself, and actually, a strict routine just simply doesn't work.

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Christine Chessman: And so I'm trying to work with them in a slightly different way. And I always talk about persistence. So keep coming back to the movement.

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Michael Ulloa: -

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Christine Chessman: So, starting again, keep starting again, rather than thinking. I need to work out exactly this way every week consistently, or I will make no progress. Your progress may not be like that, but it will be kind of.

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Michael Ulloa: -

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Christine Chessman: Sorry if you're, it's a podcast. So.

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Michael Ulloa: It goes up and down homework.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: No.

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Michael Ulloa: The same like. I don't have set days that I work out. I actually didn't have that previously before my sons were born, and I don't do that with most of my clients. Occasionally. Clients do like a bit more.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Person I work with, just because the way their schedule is, or whatever they do want to have set days. But I find we work out what amount of exercise would fit into a person's schedule on a weekly basis. I write up the workouts, and then they do them in their own time, and I think that often flexibility breeds consistency, and if you have the set days, if someone skips a day, they beat themselves up, they feel worse. Therefore they don't want to work out the next day, and I do find that the more flexibility the better. And that's

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Michael Ulloa: that's how I do my training. Now, I just I feel better about it. Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I think there's a lot of parallels to how I work with my clients in terms of intuitive eating, because the flexibility is the thing that people find so so scary initially. But that's the thing that really makes you able to tune in. You said earlier that you feel better when you exercise, but that sort of mentally. It's not detrimental to your well-being. If you have a period of time where you don't.

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Ela Law: and I think it's that flexibility, that getting to that place where you can, you can do that. I think that's really important. So can you? Can you tell us a little bit how you guide your clients to that place, because I would imagine that when they 1st engage you as a personal trainer they'll be like right. Give me that program. Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. I can exercise. What can I do? So how do you get people to understand? Actually, it's not about that.

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Michael Ulloa: I think I'm quite lucky, just because of the kind of content I create on social media. The people that reach out to me are kind of open to a slightly different approach.

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Ela Law: It's.

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Michael Ulloa: Personal training, and it's very rare now that I work with someone who hasn't got a bad story or a negative experience related to working with a personal trainer in the past. So like they'll have a lot of preconceived ideas of what it's going to be like, and they'll chime into our phone call and be like, I've not worked out since we last spoke, expecting me to kind of berate them and have a go at them. And I think it takes them by surprise when I'm like, Okay, that's cool. Right? How do we move forward from here?

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Ela Law: Because.

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Michael Ulloa: That's really all that matters. So yeah, it's very different for every person I work with. But often it's just kind of meeting someone compassionately and empathetically, and not treating them like they've failed completely because they've skipped a workout.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, I don't really have like a set path of the way that I approach it. It depends on the person in front of me.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, I think I'm just quite an empathetic person. It feels weird to compliment yourself like this. I'm British. We're not very good at complementing ourselves, but I think in terms of empathy, and being able to adapt and mold yourself to the person you're working with is definitely a skill that I have, and usually I think I like to think I navigate that pretty well.

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Ela Law: But yeah, I think that that's the perfect answer, because you are very person centered. Then you're very much like I meet you where you're at, and I work out what works for you rather than going storming in there with like, this is the program works for everybody. Here you go.

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Michael Ulloa: Hmm.

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Ela Law: So it's very much sort of tailor made.

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Michael Ulloa: It's also a background. So I worked as an occupational therapist before working as a personal trainer. And I think I definitely.

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Michael Ulloa: even though I don't think I really quite realized it at the start when I started working as a personal trainer. I think there's definitely elements of my degree and my experience there that does play into the way that I work with clients now in terms of it, being quite holistic, and taking every aspect of their life into consideration. And it's

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Michael Ulloa: I mean, the only way you build consistency right is when you do that. So the fact that most personal trainers don't is, is quite terrifying to be honest.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: We would love to talk about your I say we, I'm just assuming.

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Ela Law: Come on, assume away! Let me hear what you've got to say.

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Michael Ulloa: And.

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Christine Chessman: I'd love to talk about your nutrition, your experience with nutrition, how you work with clients and nutrition. And so we're both intuitive eating counselors. So that's kind of, and I don't really blend the 2, and that I'll sort of work with movement with clients. And I sort of say, look, I'm not a nutritionist, so I'm not going to give you a meal plan. I'm not going to

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Christine Chessman: and you know I'll kind of direct people to Ella, probably, who need any help. But how do you work with clients in terms of that, Michael.

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Michael Ulloa: Sure. So once again, there's not really a set path. I don't ever work with meal plans. I don't ever prescribe food, not because I'm technically I'm allowed to, with the qualifications I have, but I don't like to like. I don't.

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Christine Chessman: Thank you.

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Michael Ulloa: Plans are good other than kind of helping someone become really good at following a meal plan. It's 1 thing where, like most of the people that reach out to me. I'm a personal trainer. Most people that reach out want weight loss like this is like 90% of the people that reach out to me for coaching. They want to lose weight, and it's always the start is always. It's not tricky to navigate. But we have to have quite honest conversations when we get going. Like I am more than happy to support someone who has weight loss as a goal. I'll never encourage it or tell someone that they need to do it.

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Michael Ulloa: but because so many people come to me for weight loss, advice, it's all about approaching that with 0 judgment and showing that okay, that can be part of the process if you want it to. But I'm not going to put an emphasis on that at all my emphasis as a nutrition coach as a personal trainer is about making you feel better, making you perform better, and we're going to do that by nourishing your body and giving it what it actually needs to thrive, making sure that your sleep and lifestyle, habits and everything are in check.

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Michael Ulloa: And that's the way that I approach nutrition. I'm never going to make weight loss a focus. There.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Michael Ulloa: I know there's a lot of personal trainers that work, maybe within the

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Michael Ulloa: body, neutrality, body positivity space. Whatever the area is, you really want to call it. That will refuse to work with clients on a weight loss basis.

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Michael Ulloa: And I actually don't think that's as helpful.

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Michael Ulloa: Maybe I'm not in the right in. I'm in the wrong here, but I always think that

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Michael Ulloa: the way that society demands people look and perform is so full on that I'm not going to come at someone with judgment for wanting to have a weight loss goal. What I like to do is say right. This is one of your goals. But I'm actually going to redirect you to the things that are actually going to make you feel better and help you improve health markers. And I would actually rather, if we didn't make that the focus at all of the process of us working together. And that's kind of the way that I approach things with my nutrition clients, especially.

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Ela Law: That's really good, because it validates that weight loss, wish and says, Well, look, I can't blame you for wanting that. It's not what I focus on. Let's just work on all of these other things.

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Ela Law: I really like that approach. I think the sort of body neutrality, body positivity arena can be a little bit.

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Ela Law: as you said, judgmental, and a little bit like a bit militant about. We cannot talk about weight at all, so I quite like your approach. I often say to clients that I don't work on intentional weight loss. We work on sort of getting a better relationship with food and their bodies and all of that, but I'm not invalidating their wish to lose weight, and I ask them to park it while they work with me, or in our sessions together. So.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah.

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Ela Law: It's not similar.

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Michael Ulloa: It is a really difficult one to navigate, and I know I do understand why some coaches don't work with it. What I will say, though, is just the way that the fitness industry is is set up. Now, unfortunately, people are going to chase it as a goal, and the way that people are doing it on a mass scale is horrific, the way that people are approaching improving their health.

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Michael Ulloa: The emphasis is completely in the wrong place, and I think that by pushing these people away and back into the arms of coaches, they're going to completely kind of worsen their eating behaviors worsen their disordered behaviors. I think actually, if we can say right, that's cool, like it's your body, your choice. You can literally do whatever you want with it. However, I'm going to help you focus on genuinely healthy behaviors and some sustainability here. And I, personally, I think that that's the way that we should be approaching. It

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Michael Ulloa: is really interesting to me, because there's nuance here. Isn't there

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Michael Ulloa: so much? Yeah. Yeah. And I know that the way I do it, like some people disagree with, and that's cool. I just think. I think we need more open and honest discussions like this, where, unfortunately, a lot of people within the like body neutrality, space, or whatever you want to call it. They're not up for those discussions. And that that actually just has a negative impact.

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Christine Chessman: It's. I was on A podcast with Jen, Dr. Jen Huber, who, I know you've been on the podcast with Michael, and I was actually saying that a number of my clients and people that I've worked with since

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Christine Chessman: before I pivoted into the non-diet arena. They've been with me throughout. So they've kind of seen how I've evolved and my approach and all of that. And they started working out for weight loss. And now they work out because it makes them feel good. And I'm always saying there's no judgment. If the reason you want to work out is about changing how you see your body or changing an aesthetic. It's

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Christine Chessman: because sometimes once you start working out, you can start realizing how it makes you feel. And then that becomes your primary reason for working out, and that becomes your motivation.

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Michael Ulloa: I think you're spot on there like personally. So, for example, I lift weights because it makes me feel better, and I like to make my body stronger. But I also like the challenge of building muscle, and I like filling out a T-shirt because I built a bit of muscle, you know. So if I have these as a goal like yes, there's more to it than just an aesthetic goal, but it's certainly a part of it like, who am I to then judge someone for having an aesthetic goal in terms of weight loss? You know I think it is just so much more nuanced than

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Michael Ulloa: weight. Loss is bad and not weight. Not focusing on weight. Loss is good, like, I think there's so much gray area in between, and it depends completely on, like the experiences of the person you're working with in terms of the way they've approached exercise or the way they've approached nutrition in the past, and if someone comes to you, and they've

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Michael Ulloa: got a fairly healthy relationship with food and the way that they exercise and their body image like, I don't think we can judge them for wanting to strive for a certain thing like I just don't think that's my job as a coach to do that.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, it's I mean, yeah. And it's funny because the one person that I talked to recently she liked my approach, but was really worried. I wouldn't push her hard enough because she was like, Oh, but you're probably a bit soft with your clients, and I'm you know I'm not at all so, but I will. If you want to be challenged, I will challenge you. And it was almost like she was giving me a challenge. I'm like right.

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Christine Chessman: You think I'm gonna be soft.

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Michael Ulloa: A way that you.

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Christine Chessman: Can do that.

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Michael Ulloa: Right, like, I think people, especially with personal training. They sign up for a personal trainer, and they think that we're just going to like shout at them to make them hurt and to make them cry, whereas I think we can really challenge people in a way that shows compassion and is done in a structured way, like, for example, I do triathlon, ironman events, there is nothing kind of fun or soft about that at all. But the way I approach my training, I do bend to how my body is feeling, how my mind is feeling at the time.

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Christine Chessman: And.

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Michael Ulloa: And as long as we focus on that throughout the entire process, like, yeah, you can absolutely do it in a healthy and sustainable way.

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Christine Chessman: 100%.

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Christine Chessman: Ella.

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Ela Law: Yeah, but it's all about the tuning in, isn't it? It's all about understanding. You know what what's your body.

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Michael Ulloa: Which is really hard to do when someone especially come from quite disordered backgrounds like that's really really difficult to do. And it can sometimes take people kind of months, if not years, to get back to that point. But that's hopefully what we're here for. Right.

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Christine Chessman: It is. It is just the lack of judgment that I really appreciate, because it is I have. I have a client who won't mind me saying, but she recently started intermittent fasting, and she was so scared to tell me, because she was like just expecting that

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Christine Chessman: that judgment, and as soon as she told me I couldn't. My face just was like, and I'm like, I'm sorry.

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Christine Chessman: and she's like, I know, and I had to sort of. I learned through my clients to be honest, because how dare I judge her? I spent most of my life dieting and trying to change my body in certain ways and plagued with eating disserts. How can I judge somebody else? We live in a dieting culture, and it is very much.

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Michael Ulloa: There's a really, I guess that is amplified even more so with weight loss, medication coming around now. So I currently work with a few people that are on weight loss medications because they want to do it, and they want to focus on the habits when they eventually come off. This medication that.

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Christine Chessman: Is, that.

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Michael Ulloa: The changes they're making are sustainable. I wasn't working with anyone taking weight loss medications. And then we did a podcast episode on my podcast talking about the nuances around weight loss medications. And then I had people reaching out to me, being like, Oh, okay. Now, this trainer is not going to judge me because I've heard his opinion on this medication, and he realizes that there's so much nuance around these these medications that therefore people

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Michael Ulloa: now feel comfortable, reaching out to coaches that are going to show the compassion, so which just kind of cemented my thoughts on the way that I approach nutrition the way I approach exercise is is how I think coaches should be doing it right now.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Home.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I think we just had a very interesting conversation with Sarah Dosange on Glp one S, and in a similar kind of.

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Ela Law: Vein, she said, that you know we can't judge someone for taking them, but we can support them, nevertheless. You know, with our with either one of our approaches, we can make sure that they're in a safe place and a non-judgmental space they're going to take them with or without us, so that I'd rather they take it with us in their supporting them and creating, as you said, sustainable change that will help them.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: I completely agree. Like, I think, a lot of coaches. I guess if you give out cookie cutter guides on a nonstop basis, and you just focus on weight loss with people. Then you probably should be worried about glp one medications. But if you're a coach who genuinely wants to help people to improve their health. I actually think that coaching becomes even more important now that these medications are here because people need to do it in a safe and sensible way, with an emphasis on the long term. And that's where once again, coaches having these discussions and doing it with empathy is so so important.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, definitely.

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Christine Chessman: Do you have any? I know that you're in the haze of of fatherhood at the moment which can last for several years. But do you have any sort of dreams to do more triathlons or iron man competitions or.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Hive box.

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Michael Ulloa: I do. I don't have any interest in hierarch.

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Michael Ulloa: No.

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Michael Ulloa: I think that's very much on the kind of crossfit spectrum which doesn't interest me at all. I think I'm quite a lone exerciser.

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Michael Ulloa: I love

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Michael Ulloa: doing strength training with my headphones on. I like doing triathlon with my headphones on. It's just kind of me and my own thoughts. I definitely will do more triathlon events. So I've done ironman 70.3 events, and I really want to do a full ironman next. I did sign up to do one a year and a half ago, and ended up pulling out of the race 3 weeks before, because I kept getting sick. My son started daycare just.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: And I was sick for like 2 months leading up to it. And I just wasn't going to put my body through that.

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Christine Chessman: But yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: I absolutely have a goal to go back and do another 70.3, and then a full. But I'm just mentally I'm not there yet.

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Michael Ulloa: you know.

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Christine Chessman: This is. This is something that I find really interesting. I've done marathons, so I haven't done triathlons, but I've done 5 marathons, and I enjoyed 4 of them, but the last one I did. I absolutely hated it, absolutely hated it. And I'm just kind of wondering why, and I don't know whether it was just maybe.

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Michael Ulloa: What's going on in your life around it. I think that plays such a huge part. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I didn't train as much because I was like muscle memory. I only need 3 months. I've done this before. It'll be fine. It turns out you don't. You need a bit more than 3 months to.

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Michael Ulloa: It's so difficult to know isn't because.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Was training for that last one when I was getting sick. I just knew something wasn't quite right.

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Christine Chessman: Thank you.

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Michael Ulloa: Whole training process like my head, wasn't fully in the game. So the way I was approaching every training session was. Maybe I was kind of not putting my foot down as hard as I should have.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, and I just I know I'm not ready for it yet at all, so I'll give it another year or 2, I think, and then I'll go for it. But yeah, not yet. I'm happy doing my 3 strength workouts going on the occasional run to enjoy the countryside like that's me. I'm happy right now.

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Christine Chessman: And you're welcome.

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Ela Law: Nice. That sounds much better than ironman and marathons. When Christine said, I wonder why I didn't enjoy the last one

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Ela Law: I'm like. I'm in a very different

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Ela Law: come to you, I'm like, why do you enjoy this full? Stop.

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Christine Chessman: It's a mental, it's a mental battle. So it is like a marathon is such a weird journey. You go on. I hate, you know. I don't like the word journey, but it. It reminded me a little bit of childbirth, talking topically.

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Ela Law: Jeez.

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Christine Chessman: Because at some point, at some I'm listening to music, and it's helping me. And it's great. At some point nothing is helping. There is just so much

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Christine Chessman: not

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Christine Chessman: like, just throw the headphones away. Nothing. The pain is intense, and it's just like you just have to get through it somehow.

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Michael Ulloa: The races are like that. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. And it feels like there is a sense of achievement, isn't there? After you're finished? You're like, Wow, my body is freaking amazing. I ran 26.2 I mean there, you know what I mean. You suddenly feel this gratitude for your body that.

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Michael Ulloa: Honestly, the Marathons, I've done like the half irons I've done. The endings have been some of my most favorite days I've ever been alive, like, honestly, just like the sense of achievement. The family being there to support you like, it's really, really cool. And I think it actually opens up a wider discussion here about

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Michael Ulloa: kind of what is acceptable in terms of pushing ourselves, and I don't know if I'm going to word this very well at all, but like it's why I'm always quite wary to completely write off Gym. Bro culture within the fitness scene. I love strength, training, and I actually get quite pumped up by some of the really Gym Bro aspects of fitness in terms of like Arnold Schwarzenegger's pumping iron documentary. It's ridiculous, like all the guys are clearly taking steroids. There's nothing kind of healthy about.

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Michael Ulloa: but it kind of motivates you to work out if you know the nuance behind it. And I think that's kind of what I always aim to do through social media is

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Michael Ulloa: I'm not making judgment. I'm not telling people what to do. I'm just saying right. This is the deal with this thing. This is the deal with this thing. Here's all the information. Do what you want to do and do what makes you happy. And I think that that nice kind of gentle approach to fitness is actually what most people need rather than someone telling them like this is the way you should do it. And this is really really bad. I just don't think that's helpful.

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Christine Chessman: And it is hard to kind of walk that line between punishing and challenging, because that is, you know, and also for the clients, because I think it's really important. I have some clients that really want to challenge themselves and want to kind of see what their bodies are capable of. And it's really important to allow them to do that in a safe way. But I do still struggle with myself, because I have always

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Christine Chessman: approached exercise in quite a punishing way, but equally I love challenging my body. So it is like.

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Michael Ulloa: It's hard. Yeah, it's really hard to navigate.

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Christine Chessman: Am I punishing myself, or am I enjoying myself? Ella's like doesn't understand.

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Ela Law: Just like.

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Michael Ulloa: It's cool.

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Ela Law: Understood.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, it is. It is really difficult. It's a really tough one to know. And I think that it only comes with experience. But yeah, I still haven't quite figured it out mentally how this concept of kind of punishment versus enjoyment is there? But but I do think once again, I always bang the point of just like, see what your body is capable of, and that doesn't necessarily mean running a marathon to some people that is pushing for a 5 k like that could.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Huge achievement. So it's all about kind of meeting yourself where you're at now and then. Adapting as you go. And as you learn, yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I was just going to butt in with exactly that point. I think it's a very subjective and individual thing, isn't it? What does it mean to push yourself, you know, for some people a push is to do a 5 min stretch exercise, and you know good on you. If that.

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Michael Ulloa: That's right.

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Ela Law: Managed to do. That's fantastic for some people. It's an ironman, you know. I think it is.

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Ela Law: I think there is a lot of not peer pressure, but I have certainly felt the pressure to sign up to a Marathon. Never even got anywhere close to doing that. Let's just put that out there. But

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Ela Law: but you know.

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Ela Law: a lot of my friends have run one, and I always thought, Wow, I admire that, and I wish I'd done it. I wish I had the medal to show that I've done it and have done it sort of for personal achievement reasons.

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Ela Law: But there's not a single part of my body that would want to actually do it. So I admire that, and I feel like there is. Maybe I don't know. I don't know why, I'm saying waffling now. But I'm thinking there is a lot of pressure outside from from outside to kind of achieve those things, whereas for some people an achievement would be to what I just said. Do a 5 min stretch every day.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, no. Your point is bang on, because it's it's actually one of the issues I have with things like high rocks and crossfit, like at the core, fantastic getting people moving. I love it, but a lot of it does become about comparison with other people.

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Michael Ulloa: Love kind of hate a certain time, or doing it topless, and showing what your physique looks like.

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Christine Chessman: And.

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Michael Ulloa: Whereas I think you're just never going to win. I think that's the point that you need to make like, no matter what you do. Someone has done it faster. Someone has.

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Michael Ulloa: Someone has gone further than you like. If you've done an ironman great! There's a guy that did like an ironman every day, for like a hundred days in a row like you're just never going to compete with these people. So I think as long as you're doing it from a place of. I'm challenging my body to see how cool it is rather than I'm challenging my body to see if I can impress other people, because that if you're stuck in that cycle, which is what a lot of people, especially a lot of men within the fitness scene, are stuck in at the moment.

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Michael Ulloa: That's where things start going south. And that's why things like steroid use are incredibly rife at the moment, like the emphasis now is just on getting as big as possible, and if you're not, then you apparently don't know what you're talking about. I get it on a daily basis, on social media from other men.

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Michael Ulloa: telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I look like I've never lifted weights. I'm too skinny. I'm too fat like, no matter who's talking to you, you're just never going to be enough for these people, so as long as you're doing it from a place of self-love and kind of challenging that. Then then, yeah, it's cool. Go for it.

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Christine Chessman: Emma, how do you cope with comments like that, Michael? Because it's you know.

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Christine Chessman: and and absolute honesty because I was told by another trainer who's well? I had a, I was told. Oh, wow! You do so much exercise, but you look so normal, and I was. I had to step back from it and go.

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Christine Chessman: That's actually okay, because I'm trying to. I'm trying to be relatable. I'm trying to say you don't. Fitness does not look a certain way, and so that's really good. But it took me a minute.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, you know, I just there's so many layers to that comment from yes.

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Michael Ulloa: because also, like the perception of normal to the everyday person is now so skewed because of social.

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Christine Chessman: Lateline.

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Michael Ulloa: So what is a normal physique is actually someone who is completely obsessed with exercising, completely obsessed with tracking calories, probably taking steroids and the physique that they have just isn't achievable by kind of 99.9% right?

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Christine Chessman: The general.

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Michael Ulloa: So yeah, I get told that I don't have an impressive physique like that's cool with me like I've I've worked out consistently for 1314 years doing strength training. I've done multiple, long distance events like this is what a really active, normal body can look like. It doesn't have to look like, but can look like, and if that isn't enough for some people, then I don't care.

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Christine Chessman: Don't count.

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Michael Ulloa: Don't care. It definitely used to impact me when I 1st started creating social media.

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Michael Ulloa: It's taken many years of dealing with that stuff to realize that it's not because of how I look that I'm getting these comments is actually what the people are dealing with that is causing the comments to come at me. I had a really interesting situation, actually a few. It was a couple of years ago. Now I had a comment from some guy. It's always some guy who's showing his abs in his profile

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Michael Ulloa: without without fail. It's a guy showing his abs.

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Michael Ulloa: It was quite a long message. I can't remember exactly what it said, but it was basically saying that I didn't look like a personal trainer. I didn't know what I'm talking about. I wasn't big enough blah blah, and I shared it on my story, and my good friend Beth, thank you. Beth went and DM'd him, and told him what she thought of him. And the next day I got an apology from this guy, basically saying like, Oh, so I'm in a really bad place with the way that my body looks, and I was just lashing out.

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Christine Chessman: Because, some.

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Michael Ulloa: You said, challenged my thoughts about.

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Christine Chessman: So the.

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Michael Ulloa: Way that we need to look. And ever since that point

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Michael Ulloa: I just don't take anything personally anymore like it completely highlighted that this is nothing about me

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Michael Ulloa: absolutely, and it's 1.

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Michael Ulloa: Now, if you go through my social media feed, you'll rarely ever see a picture of the way that my body looks. Of course I'm in my content, so I can't completely erase that. But I'm not there showing how Muscley I am. I'm not showing how strong I am, because it's just not important to my message at all.

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Christine Chessman: 100%. I could not. I echo that because I I sort of always say my body is not my business card. I've used that because and so for me, I'll I'll show myself doing a deadlift or doing a Kettlebell swing, because that's that's what I take.

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Christine Chessman: Well, we did. Yeah, yeah, well, it's

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Christine Chessman: but I you know I have another lovely trainer who said, Oh, Christine, let's do a reading together. Can you send me some bikini photos? And I went no.

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Ela Law: But what if.

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Christine Chessman: No, I won't. No, and she couldn't, quite, because she was like, no, but it's about sort of body, neutrality body, and I'm like, but I want to decenter the body. I actually want to.

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Christine Chessman: Make it about how you feel in your body, not about how we're looking at our body. So it was just really interesting.

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Michael Ulloa: And

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Michael Ulloa: so true, I actually received a message. I'm trying to flick it up on my phone as I'm talking to you here. And yeah, literally, they'll show you the camera. This is a podcast. Once again. And it's actually just a message from someone saying, Show us your body.

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Michael Ulloa: one of my pieces of content, because apparently, unless I do that, whatever I say just isn't valid, and it just

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Michael Ulloa: completely bizarre to me. But this is unfortunately this is the social media approach to fitness like unless you have an impressive, I use air quotes, as I say, that an impressive physique and no one's going to listen to you. It's it's just bizarre. It's completely bizarre.

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Ela Law: Absolutely. Yeah, it's it is okay.

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Ela Law: It's really, it's really interesting, actually to hear say that, because I'm always obviously I'm not from the fitness, space, and I always draw the parallels to nutrition and eating. And it's the same kind of thing with all these influences. You know, this is what I eat in a day, and you should never eat this. And this is what I have for

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Ela Law: informative. It's completely. But this is

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Ela Law: exactly it. And it's it's people are so so desperate to find an expert to tell them what to do. We're losing track of actually tuning in and understanding what we need. And I think with all of these Bikini photos. Yes, if you want to put yourself out there in a bikini or topless, or whatever you want to do

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Ela Law: knock yourself out. But it is distracting from the message that we need to learn to understand what is good for us and what we need not. What person X, with 15,000 followers is showing us to do so. I think it's really important to have people like you 2 who actually reject that. No, I'm not going topless. No, I'm not going in a bikini, and I'm not

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Ela Law: presenting my body as a business card. As you said, Christine. I think it's

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Ela Law: yeah. Thank you. I think it's really.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, it's, I think, once you start delving into, especially with athletes, but also people that work within the fitness space. I think if people really knew the true extent of steroid use, eating disorders and body dysmorphia.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Those that work within the fitness space. I think that a lot of people would stop putting these folk on a pedestal as much as they do now. We recently did an episode actually on on kind of general steroid use and body image in men. And

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Michael Ulloa: the figures are absolutely terrifying. And they're only getting worse, like since Covid, bizarrely. There's like a weird moment where I think a lot of people just sat at home looking at things like Tiktok as they grew in popularity of like steroid use and body image issues, especially amongst men. Just Skyrocket

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Michael Ulloa: past the covid lockdowns. And it's just it's just keep on going keeps on going, and I don't really know how we stop it. Now. I was kind of hopeful when it sounded like Tiktok was going to die out. But I don't feel like that's going to happen now. So it's we just have to keep spreading this message. It's wild. Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely, this is really interesting. Because we obviously Christine and I'm sort of I would say the majority of our clients are women. So the steroid use in men is something that I don't know an awful lot about. So would you say that has increased recently over the last few years?

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, yeah, it's wild. I.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Michael Ulloa: Some of the stats, and the issue is, people are not honest about steroid use, so the stats look terrifying from those who are honest about taking them. So I think if everyone was truly honest about it, especially within fitness circles, it's really bad like there's even content. Now. I actually shared it with Kate, my co-host. There's a lot of Instagram pages now where they

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Michael Ulloa: go around interviewing people in their gym, trying to guess whether they're on steroids, and they're all just kind of laughing and joking about it. And they'll be like, Yeah, I'm on steroids. Ha, ha! So I just think that

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Michael Ulloa: the severity, and the risks around steroid use have now almost been completely kind of pushed aside. So where people think it's a really normal and acceptable thing to do once again. I don't think we should tackle steroid use with judgment and criticizing those who take it, but I think we need to start having the discussions about why people are turning to steroids now, because it's getting worse. And it's scary. Yeah.

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Ela Law: Wow!

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Christine Chessman: Oh, goodness!

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Michael Ulloa: And don't get me wrong like the rates amongst women. Steroid use amongst women is huge, too, like it is.

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Christine Chessman: As well. Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, it's really high, too. Yeah, yeah.

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Ela Law: Right right, we should link to your to that episode in the show notes.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, that would be.

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Ela Law: Do that.

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Michael Ulloa: So it was on a toxic masculinity within the fitness, space.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Michael Ulloa: So yeah, it's yeah. The numbers were. They even took me by surprise. I thought they were, gonna be high, and they even surprised me. So it's.

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Ela Law: It's.

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Michael Ulloa: Bad, you know.

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Ela Law: Yeah, okay.

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Christine Chessman: I watched a documentary recently, and I can't remember what the guy's name was, but he was like he'd created this whole supplement thing about meat supplements, or.

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Michael Ulloa: The liver! King.

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Christine Chessman: The Liver King, the Liver King, and it turns out he was on steroids. The whole.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, he's just a prime example, you know, of, like, he was definitely kind of what we're talking about ironically on steroids, because it was just. It was so. He had such a big following. But it's just a classic example of how fitness influencers grow. A huge following around the way that their bodies look whilst constantly saying, I'm natural. I'm not taking steroids and not taking steroids. And then I think it was an email got leaked of his

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Michael Ulloa: yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: showing how much steroids use. He was doing, and it was like tens of thousands a month he was spending on steroids.

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Ela Law: What?

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Michael Ulloa: You could tell by looking at him. This guy was taking steroids. However, the fact that he grew a massive following by lying to people is worrying. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I know it's just so misleading, and that's that's will come. We'll circling back to the fact that that is what we appreciate so much about your content.

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Ela Law: No, it's like debunking the fitness. Bollocks that's like.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah. And there's a lot of it, right?

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Michael Ulloa: A lot of benefits.

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Michael Ulloa: It's only getting worse, like I do feel like I was. Gonna say without making it too political. But please let's make it political, like what's happening in the Us. At the moment.

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Michael Ulloa: That's just all of their systems being completely deconstructed. And now.

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Ela Law: Oh, man!

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Michael Ulloa: Just I feel like within the last 6 months since trump came into power. The misinformation is just absolutely skyrocketing now, especially amongst like carnival crowds, raw meat drinkers, raw milk drinkers, and raw meat eaters. It's yeah. You feel like you go through a period where things are getting better. And then it it kind of spirals again.

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Christine Chessman: Perfect.

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Michael Ulloa: Like we're we're in a pretty bad spot right now.

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Christine Chessman: I mean I to be honest, the whole skinny talk really caught me by surprise. The fact that we're all you know. And again Eric was dying to be thin, and it really is that I thought we had slightly moved on from that. But it is. It's very.

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Michael Ulloa: I thought we had, but I think it's I think often we can sometimes get caught in an echo chamber where we meet some fantastic people on social media that are trying to fight against this. And we're like, Oh, yeah, things are happening. But then you look at the grander scale. And you're like on a tiny drop in a massive ocean.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Of misinformation, and it's I mean. Luckily skinny talks now been banned on tick.

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Christine Chessman: I know I know that is absolutely.

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Michael Ulloa: Every cloud. The fact it grew in popularity is worrying. But yeah, it's least it's banned now. So.

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Christine Chessman: And so, Michael, we would love to talk to you for another 2 h, but we tried to keep it for to 30 min, and we've gone over by 20 min. Of course.

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Ela Law: Have surprise, Christine!

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Christine Chessman: No, not at all. Where can we find you if we want to work with you? Where can we find you? It's Instagram.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, mostly Instagram is where I kind of create most of my content. Most people that work with me tend to follow me for a little while before reaching out, which I actually quite like, because they tend to get my vibe and see whether we'd be a good fit in terms of working together. But yeah, Instagram is mostly where I put on my content. I have a podcast called How to Fitness, that I do with my co-host, Kate Lyman, and we just do kind of deep dives and a lot of debunking on there which are always good fun. But other than that, yeah, my website is just my name. I'll let people look at the show notes, because it's

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Michael Ulloa: quite a hard surname to say and spell. But it's just michaelujoa.com yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And you're up in Edinburgh right.

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Michael Ulloa: Yeah, I've lived up in Edinburgh now for over 10 years. Yeah, yeah. Just before I started personal training, I moved up to Edinburgh. So I started personal training until I figured out what I wanted to do with my life, and 10 years later I feel like I got the best job in the world. So yeah, I feel very fortunate.

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Christine Chessman: No, I went. I went to uni in Edinburgh, so.

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Michael Ulloa: Oh! Did you.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I love Edinburgh, and my daughter is about to go to uni. And I'm like, Why don't you go to Edinburgh? And they're like.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Michael Ulloa: Let me switch the

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Michael Ulloa: lovely city. I do love it like the weather's not great, if I'm honest, that's the one thing that lets it down. But yeah, I was only supposed to be here for a year whilst my girlfriend at the time. Now my wife was finishing her degree, she got offered a job by the university, and we just stayed and.

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Christine Chessman: To.

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Michael Ulloa: Now, I've got a business here, 2 kids, a dog like, yeah, we're

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Michael Ulloa: you're not going anywhere, are you?

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Christine Chessman: Thank you so much.

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Ela Law: Very much. We need to finish off with the very important question, Michael. Sure, tell us, how do you find your strong.

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Michael Ulloa: Just by not listening to the opinions of anyone else. Yeah, like, I spend so much time on social media, which isn't good for your mental health, even for the people that work on it, and I find that the way that I find my strong is simply turning off the noise from what anyone else is doing. I listen to how my body feels. I listen to my wife when she tells me I may be doing too much, and that helps me stay nice and balanced. And that's how I find my strong. Yeah.

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Ela Law: I love that brilliant thank you so so much for giving up your very little time, that you have at the moment, and actually staying awake for us.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Appreciate that.

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Michael Ulloa: Thank you. Loads of caffeine. I'm doing good.

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Michael Ulloa: I know so much for having me.

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Ela Law: It's absolute pleasure.