Bonus Episode: Why are boundaries so hard to set?

We recently had Sarah Dosanjh on the pod and as part of our prep had re-listened to several recent Life After Diets podcast.  An episode about boundaries - setting and keeping - really spoke to us, so we decided to do a deep dive.

We are by no means experts and in this episode, we simply try to navigate recovery from perfectionism and learning to set appropriate personal relationship boundaries as well as boundaries around food and movement.

We get personal and open up about why we both struggle to set boundaries and why softening into boundaries can often be a good thing.

Have a listen and please let us know about your own experience with boundaries and the part they play in your relationship with food or your body.

* I mention the work of Rules and Rebellion, Burnout and Perfectionism Strategists. Tasha and Brandon offer support for folks who are struggling with or have struggled with burnout and offer lots of short and simple nervous system regulation techniques as well as lots of free content to engage with.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: Hi, Christine!

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Christine Chessman: Hi, I'm okay. How are you?

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Ela Law: Yeah, hot and sweaty. We were just talking before we came on air that it's very hot, and I've got a little desk fan. People on Youtube can see it, but I have to turn it off because it makes my eyes go dry, and when I haven't got it on I get sweaty. So rock and hard place kind of thing.

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Christine Chessman: I'm I'm really cold, Mike. If I'm sitting on this.

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Ela Law: Which is like an ice pot.

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Ela Law: Nice.

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Christine Chessman: You can't see it if you're listening on.

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Ela Law: You've got a cool bum.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I've got a very cold, you know, when it's too cold. It's like an ice cream bum.

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Ela Law: Oh, my God!

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Ela Law: Do you get then, instead of brain freeze, you get bum freeze.

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Christine Chessman: Bump, freeze! But it's it's still better than sweaty and and horrible.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I don't like being yeah. I don't like being sweaty. I was. I did an exercise class this morning outside, and we were in the shade, and I was literally dripping sorry to being too graphic, and Tmi and all that. But it's just not my season the summer. I'm sorry.

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Christine Chessman: Try being a frigging fitness instructor.

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Ela Law: Know how you do it. I'd be like, no, I'm taking the summer off. Meet me in the middle of September. Thank you.

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Christine Chessman: I know. I know boundaries.

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Ela Law: Yes, exactly.

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Christine Chessman: Okay.

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Ela Law: That's what we're talking about today, boundaries, and that's all on the back of the fabulous Sarah and Stephanie from life after diets, because I listened to one of their podcasts, and we can link to it in the show notes because they'll probably be talking about it way more eloquently than the 2 of us can. But I really really loved the topic of boundaries, because it's something that keeps coming up with clients that I'm sort of trying to figure out for myself in various ways. So

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Ela Law: you know, how do they show up? How do? How do we set them, and

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Ela Law: what are they, and are they fixed, or are they flexible? All that kind of stuff? So yeah, I just thought, we'll have a chat about it. What do you? What do you think about boundaries?

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Christine Chessman: So I don't know about boundaries. I'm probably not as boundaried as I think I should be in many ways.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: What do you feel? Is the difference between rules and boundaries?

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Ela Law: Oh, that's a good one.

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Ela Law: I I think there's a bit of a

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Ela Law: it gets a bit murky, doesn't it? But I would say a rule is a rule is something that

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Ela Law: can apply to lots of people. A rule is something that is.

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Christine Chessman: Okay.

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Ela Law: Pretty, rigid.

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Ela Law: A boundary is very subjective, and I think very individual to the person who sets it.

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Ela Law: That's what I would say, probably

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Ela Law: having been put on the spot there, with that question I would say, that's probably this sort of initial response to it. Would you? Would you agree? I feel like the word rule in and of itself sounds very rigid. It sounds like have to follow this, or else.

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Christine Chessman: It's almost. That's what I struggle with with boundaries, because it's because it's almost like the goalposts. Move a little bit. So you know, with clients, I try to be boundary, but then, if somebody's having a hard time, then.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Then I don't. I let this slip, and I.

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Ela Law: Do you begrudge that when that happens.

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Christine Chessman: No, because I'm a people pleaser, trying to not be.

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Ela Law: So when you have a tell me, give me an example, because that's really interesting. So when you have a client who's having a hard time and your usual boundary. Of what would that be?

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Christine Chessman: Well, it would be kind of. We could talk about it around payment. We could talk about it around.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Christine Chessman: I sort of ask clients to do at least 3 sessions out of 4 every month to keep their slot.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Do I follow through with that now.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: No, because people go away for 3 weeks, 4 weeks. And

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Christine Chessman: so that is something which I could get a lot clearer on with people. If people don't pay at the right time, I just end up chasing them for ages and taking loads of time.

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Christine Chessman: and that I do get frustrated.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Myself when that happens, because I'm not setting a strong enough.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I agree. And it's.

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Christine Chessman: And I think it's different. I did counseling training. I think it's very different, because it's much clearer as a counselor. You really need to set boundaries, because people are coming from a place where they've struggled to to build that trust with themselves and with others, and you absolutely have to keep boundaries.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: People. Bots.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I'm I'm much more lax.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: With setting my own business, personal business, boundaries.

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Ela Law: Yeah, that's interesting. Would you say? Then, if in terms of payment in particular payment is one of those really tricky ones, isn't it? If someone pays you in advance for a session, and then they miss it.

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Ela Law: Would that then lead you to say, oh, we can reschedule because you've already paid for it.

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Christine Chessman: No, no, so if they cancel on the day.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Generally I charge them.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But if something, you know, if they've had to go to hospital or something, then I don't feel right charging them.

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Ela Law: I know.

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Christine Chessman: So it's do you know what I mean? Maybe their their child's gone to A and E, and I feel like it's a bit wrong to go well, just pay my session as well.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But then you have to make a living, and that's where I struggle.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: So I'm like I do need to make a living, and it is a contract. So if I, for example, made an Osteopath appointment, and I couldn't make it. I would expect to pay for that, anyway.

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Ela Law: Even if your child had to go to hospital.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, cause that's a business you wouldn't expect a business to kind of go. That's fine.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Did you.

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Ela Law: No, exactly. But it's interesting that that would be okay. But someone paying you for a session when their child had to go to hospital would feel awkward, wouldn't it?

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law: It's interesting how the boundaries there are accepted if someone else sets them.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: But you setting them feels awkward, and I'm exactly the same. I'm not just sort of picking up on what you just said in terms of you, but I'm the exact same. If someone and I've had this happen before, I suppose it depends a little bit on the relationship I have with a client, if it's someone who does it all the time. I'm like you're paying for this. If this is every now and again, or I know someone is struggling, and they call me up like an hour before the session. And I say, can we postpone? I feel really sick.

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Ela Law: Then I would

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Ela Law: I should really charge them for the session. But I have in the past said, Okay, let's reschedule. But it also depends on how busy I am. I struggle with that massively.

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Christine Chessman: But then we talk about burnout, and for somebody with an Adhd brain a floating week

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Christine Chessman: really hard on my brain. It's like, Oh, can I change times? Can I fit in there instead of there? And I'm like, Okay, so I'm fitting you in there and fitting. And my brain, I get completely overwhelmed.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Christine Chessman: And I really struggle with that. I feel very stressed.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So I I think it would be great if I could just stick to.

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Christine Chessman: You know this is your slots. We move, if absolutely have to, and if we have time, that's great. But.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I find that. Yeah, that's definitely something I'm working at. Because I want to be fair to people. And people's lives are not straightforward, and kids have, like school plays and.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: All that kind of stuff, you know.

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Ela Law: Yeah, that's the thing. When you have a regular slot, and then something else crops up.

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Ela Law: I can see that. I think I'm thinking along the lines of if something unforeseen happens. That means that you had something scheduled, and it was absolutely fine. But something

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Ela Law: came up that takes priority that needs to be addressed.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. But that is that is exactly why people cancel. They don't cancel because

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Christine Chessman: they they can't be bothered. Something comes up.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Cancel, and you do have to make a living, and if this is my way of making a living, I sort of work out how much my monthly income is depends on how many clients I have, what my weekly monthly income is.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And if I can't, you know, Project, that.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Realistically, it's really hard.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: You know what I mean. So if I have a client that pushes back, maybe 3 weeks.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And I'm waiting for, you know, the next block of 8 sessions. That's a huge chunk out of my.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Explain. Could you? Do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and this is, this is where setting boundaries is really important, isn't it? And actually not feeling bad about it and guilty about it, and saying, Well, we would do the same if someone else said that something that you said off mic earlier, and I'd love to say you to sort of share that again with setting boundaries for yourself and for other people, can you? I love that. Can you tell me what you what you said.

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Christine Chessman: Okay.

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Ela Law: You remember, sir? No.

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Christine Chessman: Pressure. Yeah. So I don't want to sort of Badmouth, my husband, but I don't think he listens so it's fine.

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Christine Chessman: I used to set a boundary for him. I used to say, if you shout at me, you know my boundary is, you do not swear you do not raise your voice at me because I find it very upsetting and triggering coming from the background. That I did. I find it just it. Really, I feel very anxious and tense, and it's not okay.

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Christine Chessman: But then I was working with a group called Rules and Rebellion, Tasha and Brandon. I'll put them in the show notes, and they were talking about the fact that actually you should set boundaries for yourself rather than for other people, because you cannot control other people's behavior.

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Christine Chessman: So you see it from that perspective. So rather than me going, I'm going to set a boundary that you can't be late paying me blah blah, if you're late doing it. No, I'll set my own boundary.

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Christine Chessman: My husband. I'm like, if you do raise your voice and shout at me, I will not engage with you.

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Ela Law: I simply will not engage with you. I will leave the room. I, you know and that is my boundary for myself to protect myself.

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Ela Law: yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Rather than you're not going to do that anymore.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I can't. You know I can't.

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Christine Chessman: Control him. I can't control his behaviour. That's not.

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Ela Law: Hi.

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Christine Chessman: What am I?

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Christine Chessman: Is? Does that make sense.

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Ela Law: It makes complete sense. And it's a really.

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Ela Law: it's a really clear way of looking at a boundary, I think, because I think that where boundaries fall flat on their faces is exactly doing the opposite of that when we set a boundary. Tell somebody

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Ela Law: I don't want you to do that. That's my boundary. When it really isn't your boundary. It's their boundary that they, you know, we're not in charge of anybody else's boundaries and boundaries. Clash, you know Sarah Dosange described it as sort of a boundary is where where I end, and you begin kind of thing.

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Ela Law: but it's almost like it's like a fence on each side with a little bit of No Man's Land in the middle. But everyone has to set their boundary. You can't set a boundary for somebody else.

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Ela Law: because, as you said, you can't control somebody else, and therefore, if you set a boundary for somebody else, and they break that boundary.

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Ela Law: they you you feel like. Oh, I'm not very good at setting boundaries.

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Christine Chessman: Exactly.

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Ela Law: Right. Whereas you just

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Ela Law: yeah, maybe that's right, because you didn't set the right boundary. You didn't set a boundary for yourself. So I love that sort of saying, if you do that, then I will, and my response to that will be XY. And Z.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah yeah or not, not even if you do that. But if I feel.

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Ela Law: If I feel.

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Christine Chessman: If I feel like it's too much, I will. I will. Yeah, not engage blah blah.

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Ela Law: Yep.

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Christine Chessman: And I think that really changed my, I was like, oh, of course

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Christine Chessman: I haven't been setting my own. I've been setting very much thinking about how other people would react, behave all of that.

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Christine Chessman: or think, or all of that. So I think that's quite a. But we wanted to talk about it in terms of food and movement.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: And yes, so tell me how. You see I mean boundaries around food.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Tricky, tricky, huh!

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Ela Law: Yeah, it can be because it could be a boundary that's restrictive. You mistake a boundary for a rule in that sense that I shouldn't eat after 6 pm. Or I shouldn't eat whatever.

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Ela Law: And it's very easy to kind of misconstrue that as a boundary where that is just a food rule. A diet.

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Ela Law: Yes, food rule, I would say. Boundaries in terms of your relationship with food have more to do with

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Ela Law: again. Probably a lot with other people sort of saying stuff about your body, about what you're eating and your response to that. So.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, so you cannot make them stop those comments.

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Ela Law: No, exactly.

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Ela Law: So. You can't tell your Auntie Betty to not tell you. Or should you really have that second piece of cake? Because Auntie Betty says what Auntie Betty wants to say, but your boundary would be to not say Oh, you! You overstepped the mark there, Auntie Betty, you would be the one who you would be the one who responded to that, in whatever way, felt safe for you to protect you. So I think a boundary in and of itself should be something that protects you.

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Ela Law: and that keeps you safe

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Ela Law: so that Boundary could be. If Auntie Betty says something about me eating 2 slices of cake again. I will leave the room.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, yeah.

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Ela Law: Or I will

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Ela Law: talk to somebody else, or whatever that might look like. I don't. I don't know. That's the individual part of it. But.

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Christine Chessman: This is the thing we cannot control other people. And this was going to. And I think maybe this will

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Christine Chessman: make it clear to people. I'm using an example from my own struggle at the minute in terms.

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Ela Law: Good.

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Christine Chessman: My kids around eating and bodies and all of that. And I was going to send a group like Whatsapp to my close friends, whose kids all hang out all together with my kids, and say, I don't want anybody talking about my kids bodies, whether in, you know, if well-meaning and inverted commas.

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Christine Chessman: You know whether they've gone up? They've gone down, whether they've or aren't you? No, just nothing around bodies.

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Christine Chessman: But that is not my binary to keep.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: So how does that work, Ella? Because.

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Ela Law: Oh!

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Christine Chessman: Is that to me? That's very important, because I know that myself as a kid of their age, you know, comments were what didn't cause my eating disorder, but definitely

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Christine Chessman: accelerated or exacerbated the the situation.

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Christine Chessman: And you're me.

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Ela Law: No, God, that's a tricky one, because you so desperately want to protect your children from that right.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, and bodies change teenage bodies go up and down.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, naturally, and I wouldn't want a flyaway comment.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Sit with them.

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Christine Chessman: No, you can't protect them, can you from? But I don't know so.

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Christine Chessman: But, as you said, that's not. That's not a boundary that you can set. I mean, you could.

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Ela Law: You could mention it and make a comment and ask for consideration.

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Ela Law: But the boundary needs to come from your children really right

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Ela Law: if they are in that situation, what would their response be?

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Christine Chessman: Does that need to come from them?

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Ela Law: Yeah, because you're not in the situation. You can't set a boundary for a situation that you're not part of.

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Christine Chessman: No, if I'm there.

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Ela Law: Oh, if you're there. Okay, well, again, isn't. Isn't the boundary? How do you respond to it?

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Ela Law: I mean, your response could be education. Your response could be.

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Ela Law: Look, I heard what you just said, and this is what damage it could do.

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Christine Chessman: That could be your boundary.

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Ela Law: I suppose.

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Christine Chessman: Okay, yeah, yeah.

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Ela Law: Does it make sense.

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Ela Law: Just thinking on the spot here.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: It's really tricky.

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Christine Chessman: It is tricky. And it is when I think about that. You know, kids are on social media now, and they're going to be coming up against all kinds of

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Christine Chessman: difficult comments, and

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Christine Chessman: you know and it is you can't protect them forever. I guess you can just think about how to build them up and.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Arm them with a resilience.

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Ela Law: That resilience exactly, I suppose, in a way, that's

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Ela Law: yeah. That's part of a boundary, isn't it? The sort of flexing that muscle off

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Ela Law: responding in a way that feel safe and protective.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law: Yeah, in terms of movement. What would you say? I mean, we sort of a lot of boundaries are probably around comments about bodies and food and amounts of food and stuff like that.

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Christine Chessman: A binary that I draw now is in a class. If I'm going to a class, I'm not doing it. If somebody tells me to keep pushing. Keep pushing, keep pushing when I

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Christine Chessman: enough. I will not.

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Ela Law: Well, right?

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Christine Chessman: My boundary is. No, no, thank you, I've got enough now.

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Christine Chessman: And I will not keep going until I feel a bit ill. No, no, if I challenge myself, I will challenge myself, but not if I feel like I've hit my limit, there is no way that I will push it past that.

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Ela Law: and again, that's a boundary. You're setting for yourself, you're not telling the trainer coach instructor to don't, say that to me, it's like you can say whatever you want to me, but I'm going to listen to what I'm.

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Christine Chessman: Able to do right. Now, yeah, what about you for a movement.

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Ela Law: I I'm quite good at that now. I probably I used to probably be a lot more like

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Ela Law: you tell me I need to do that. What's the hardest level? I'll sort of exhaust myself, but I haven't been doing that for a while. I mean just an example. From this morning I went to an outdoor boot camp class, and there were certain things I just can't do. I can't do a push up to save my life, and I certainly can't do a Burpee on a 8 Kilo medicine ball, and then a push up. It's just not going to happen.

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Ela Law: and you know there's no, however much you want to encourage me to, I'm going to fall flat on that fucking ball. It's not going to happen. So I did my own thing that was my boundary. I didn't tell the trainer to not tell me what to do, and she actually she respected that boundary, and she said.

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Ela Law: What you're doing is great. Keep doing that. However, you know, whatever works for you, any variation of that is fine. So that was a really nice example of a boundary set by me.

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Ela Law: I'm not doing that. I feel unsafe. I actually feel unsafe doing that because I haven't got that sort of ability. And her respecting that boundary, and I thought that was that was an interesting.

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Ela Law: and I would say, most people who are

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Ela Law: compassionate and caring and love what they do. They want you to do and do stuff that you can do, and give you a sense of achievement and sort of make you feel good. Right.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, and you know we've all done those boot camps where we have done things that our bodies really, you know, should not have been doing because we hadn't had the appropriate training or range of motion, or anything like that. But yeah, that absolutely. So you can get very easily injured. And I think there is no point in doing something you don't feel happy with. So I yeah, I applaud you for that boundary.

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Ela Law: Thank you very much. Yeah. I was quite pleased with myself, because maybe even as as

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Ela Law: recent as 2 years ago, I probably would have pushed.

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Christine Chessman: Wow!

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Ela Law: I probably would have challenged myself to something that felt quite unsafe, and also

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Ela Law: too scary and challenging for me. And I'm like, Well, who am I trying to prove something to? Why do I have to?

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Ela Law: Why do I have to do it? So? Yeah, that I felt good.

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Christine Chessman: That's great, and that is, that is one of my biggest bugbears, I think, is just, you know, going down the seafront and seeing all these people swinging kettlebells around without any technique, and

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Christine Chessman: you know not in a way that looks in any way safe for their bodies. And it's because they feel they have to do what everybody else is doing in the same way. And

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Christine Chessman: yeah, I don't.

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Ela Law: Sounds, dangerous.

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Christine Chessman: I don't love it.

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Ela Law: No, no, absolutely so would you, would you say, in terms of boundaries? I know you said you're not very good at setting boundaries. But would you say that there are different kinds of boundaries? You you'd be setting for different parts of you, you know. There's obviously we're all we're not one big hole. We have all got different parts to our personality and to who we are.

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Ela Law: I'm just wondering if you, if you've ever noticed that one part of you would like to set that boundary, and the other one would rebel against it. Has that ever happened.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I mean, we were talking. We were talking before record about the fact that we're both perimenopausal and.

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Christine Chessman: Tired.

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Christine Chessman: I just don't really want to go out, but are trying.

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Christine Chessman: And yeah, so that is something that I'm trying to get better at is working out what I want, what versus what I need or what I should do versus what I actually want to do. And so I have got more boundaries around not going out when I'm really tired and actually saying, actually, that doesn't work for me. I'm really tired rather than going. Oh, yeah, of course, no problem. But

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Christine Chessman: So yeah, that's definitely one part of my life that I'm getting much better at. But then

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Christine Chessman: the conflict comes because I've got Fomo. Then I'm like, oh, I should have gone. Oh, no, I bet they're having a great time. Oh, I should have. Yeah. And then you know what I mean. So it's it almost backfires, because the whole time I go oh, maybe I should have gone. That would have been good.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And I'm just sitting here, you know, and it's yeah. So do you know what I mean?

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Ela Law: I know exactly what you mean, and that's such a good example, because that resonates so so massively right now, because.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: It's that it's that part of you that does want to be the one that goes out and has fun, and the one that has Fomo, and the one that doesn't want life to pass her by that sort of thing right? And then there's the other part that is just so fucking exhausted, and just doesn't want to do anything.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, exactly.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: You've got that as well. So what? Tell me about your binary situation?

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Ela Law: Yeah, I would say, it's a similar kind of thing. I was thinking in terms of a wonderful client that I worked with, who

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Ela Law: who struggled with exactly that, with energy levels. And with that that feeling

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Ela Law: guilty for saying, No, I'm not coming out and for worrying about letting people down that sort of thing, and I think that's a good example of.

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Ela Law: you know. Make it setting, setting a boundary that is protecting your energy levels. But maybe isn't

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Ela Law: isn't protecting the part of you that wants to have some fun

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Ela Law: that wants to do it. Still, because there was a big part of her as well that wanted to wanted to be part of that, whatever it was that was going on, and it would have been helpful in some ways, and it would have.

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Ela Law: Sometimes it helps to to just do it and get out there.

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Christine Chessman: Very. So. That's that's exactly my problem. Right now. I don't know what I should be doing should in a very cause. I'm too tired. So I say, I'm not going and then go. I'm just gonna be sitting at home the whole.

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Ela Law: And.

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Christine Chessman: And especially when it's sunny.

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Christine Chessman: Living by the sea. Everybody's gone to the beach.

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Christine Chessman: So I feel I should go to the beach because it's sunny.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And then, if I don't go, I'm feeling oh, great! I don't have to go, but then I'm like Oh, I should have gone.

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Christine Chessman: It's just. And I feel like I shouldn't just stay at home.

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Christine Chessman: because sometimes that can make exacerbate you. And yeah, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: and I think too much at the best time. So sometimes, as you say, it's better just to go and do it.

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Ela Law: Yeah, well, maybe.

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Christine Chessman: When do you know? How do you know what you actually need?

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Christine Chessman: This is what I struggle with, because Tuesday night for dance? Let's talked about this contemporary dance. I'm really struggling to go back to Tuesday night. I thought right. I'll go.

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Christine Chessman: All day I went. Actually, do I want to go? I really don't want to go.

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Christine Chessman: And then, my, you know, the friends in the class were going. Oh, please go. And I'm like, Okay, I'll go. And I went. I really didn't want to go, but I went, and I kind of enjoyed it.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: And then I was kind of glad that I went, but I spent the whole day going. Oh, I don't want to go. I shouldn't go, and that's such a waste of time.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. So.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, it it is the worrying about it. I wonder whether there's a boundary to be had, sort of that

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Ela Law: that feeds into that.

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Ela Law: Let's just give it a go, and then the boundary is, if I really don't enjoy it, I can go.

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Ela Law: and I think we're coming back to movement. I have a number of clients who are feeling really burnt out, so they think.

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Christine Chessman: I want to move, but I don't have the energy.

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Christine Chessman: so I'm good, so do they rest completely.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Do they try and move? Because sometimes movement can be fantastic.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: Really change your.

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Ela Law: Gising.

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Christine Chessman: And support your mental health. But sometimes the right thing for you is to not move, and is to find rest.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Sleep and nourishment. And just

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Christine Chessman: so, it's very hard, I think people struggle with that is, where do you draw that line, or how do you know what you actually need.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But it's.

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Christine Chessman: I'm asking, how did.

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Ela Law: Oh, I don't know. I don't have the answer, but that's what I mean. I think maybe sometimes we just need to give ourselves permission to try it and see if it makes us feel better. So try the rest, and if rest makes you feel worse and more lethargic, then maybe try the activity instead and see if that helps.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: And I think a lot of the time

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Ela Law: for sort of physiological reasons. Getting up and doing something will make you feel a little bit more energized and better, maybe tired physically, at the end of it.

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Ela Law: But there's all sorts of biochemistry happening when you move. That may be

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Ela Law: it'll help you get out of that slump.

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Christine Chessman: But sometimes your body is just very tired.

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Ela Law: Exactly.

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Ela Law: Yeah. It's difficult to judge. It's difficult to make that decision, isn't it? And it's very difficult to set a boundary, because when you set the boundary that is too rigid. There.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Missing out. So if you say, whenever I feel tired, I'm just not gonna I'm just going to sit on the sofa

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Ela Law: that might not be the best.

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Ela Law: There might be a rule that is too rigid and actually not serving you.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. You know, I think we could talk about this all day, I think, for our neurodivergent friends, myself included. It's a really hard one, because for somebody that maybe overthinks anyway. And you know, I'm all about intuitive movement and checking with how you feel on any given day. And I'm definitely getting better at it, so that I don't push myself the way that I did.

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Christine Chessman: But and I love movement. So I'm very lucky with that. And generally, I ask myself, how do I want to feel.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And move them according to that, but I find it very helpful to have weekly things booked in. So I do a boxing class

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Christine Chessman: where I have that bit of accountability, because otherwise I'd spend the whole time going. Do I want to go? I don't know. Should I go there, or is it something I don't need to think about? I go to boxing.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: And I think that's really helpful to me, and I don't do it too much. So if I had too many things booked in, it would feel overwhelming.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But I know if nothing else that week I've done that class.

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Christine Chessman: and I will always feel better afterwards.

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Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. I think an interesting comparison is sorry. I'm just checking.

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Ela Law: There's something going on.

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Ela Law: Hang on.

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Ela Law: Yeah. An interesting comparison. There is that

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Ela Law: people who are on a meal plan.

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Ela Law: They it. It gives you that

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Ela Law: moment of where you don't have to think about it, where you don't have to worry about. What am I going to eat where you have? And I think for neurodivergent folks in particular? It helps because thinking about what you're going to have next is so hard, anyway.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Having a little bit of structure and a little bit of routine, whether that is a boundary, or whether that is just that a structure and a bit of routine.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: You know, that can be really, really helpful. So I hear you when you say, Oh, having booked in those sessions that's really helpful for me, because then I don't have to think about what I'm doing. You have a little bit of accountability.

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Christine Chessman: And and a reminder to everybody. You can go to classes and half ask that you do not. You show up as you're feeling that day so.

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Ela Law: Bandwidth.

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Christine Chessman: And you know, I think when it comes to feeling unwell, or maybe you haven't had any sleep. I think maybe think about not doing the workout and and really taking care of yourself. But when you're just feeling a bit.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: Often. It's quite nice to show up. Move a little bit. See how you feel.

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Christine Chessman: Work. Then you can leave halfway through.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, exactly. That's a nice boundary.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Stick to your bandwidth.

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Christine Chessman: No, it's it's just a really. I find boundaries just confusing, and I'm not sure if anybody listening feels the same, it is.

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Christine Chessman: No, I think lots of us do. I find quite murky and quite difficult to.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. Gain any clarity around.

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Ela Law: Yeah. But I think the 2 quite sort of clear things that we said about them today is

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Ela Law: setting it for you, not for somebody else. I think that that makes it a lot clearer.

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Christine Chessman: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

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Ela Law: I think that's really, really helpful. Actually, what you said there and then. The other thing is maybe think about is this

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Ela Law: is this boundary protecting me.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Boundary punishing me. Is this boundary too rigid and actually not helpful?

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Christine Chessman: Hmm, very interesting.

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Ela Law: We end on that.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm still. My brain is just taking over. I'm like.

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Ela Law: Hmm!

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Christine Chessman: And yeah, and we didn't even talk about consent because we had that discussion with Doris in terms of movement. And then.

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Christine Chessman: And hands-on approach from certain teachers and all of that. But we'll leave that to another time. But, Ella, thank you for today. That was very insightful.

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Ela Law: Yeah. Likewise, I just thought we'd just see where it takes us. And, as I said, I would say, very eloquent people, Stephanie and and Sarah on the life after diets. Podcast if you want to delve a little bit deeper into boundaries, I'd highly recommend you listen to their to their episode. We'll link to it in the show notes.

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely, and we'll be back next week with another scintillating topic.

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Christine Chessman: Yay got some amazing guests coming.

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Ela Law: We have very excited.

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Christine Chessman: Keep tuned, leave us a review, or like the podcast or just listen. We're really happy to have you here, and we'll see you soon.

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Ela Law: Bye.