Stepping away from your eating disorder - A conversation with Dr Rachel Evans

We had the pleasure of chatting with Dr Rachel Evans for this episode - and we absolutely loved her multi-faceted approach to eating disorder recovery. Rachel draws on her own lived experience with Bulimia, and uses lots of different therapeutic modalities in her client sessions so that each session is tailored exactly to the individual client. 

Rachel kindly shared her own story with us, and we are sure it will resonate with many people, because it highlights that there often isn't a distinct moment in time when our relationship with food goes off the rails and an eating disorder develops, but that it can happen very gradual, and under the disguise of 'healthy eating' habits.

We talked about how we can get back out of those destructive and disordered habits, how recognising triggers is vital, and how hypnotherapy can be super helpful for some clients in understanding where the foundations to their eating disorder were laid.

If you want to learn more about Rachel's work, you can check out her website or find her on Instagram @rachel.evans.phd

Her podcast 'Just Eat Normally' has over 60 episodes of conversations about eating disorder recovery with some great guests! 

BIO: Dr. Rachel Evans is a chartered psychologist, hypnotherapist and mum of 2. She combines her lived experience of bulimia recovery with professional expertise and training to support one-to-one clients who feel obsessed with food, hate their body, and use increasingly extreme methods to try and control it, from making themselves throw-up, to misusing laxatives or weight-loss drugs and compulsive exercise. At the heart of her practice is a compassionate, individualised, and trauma-informed, multi-disciplinary approach, focusing on the person rather than a label

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

Transcript

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Ela Law: Right, welcome to another episode of Find Your Strong Podcast. How are you, Christine? You okay?

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Christine Chessman: grand, not too bad. Yeah, we just…

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Ela Law: had a conversation with the lovely Rachel Doctor, actually, Rachel Evans, about all sorts of different things, including eating disorder recovery, the use of hypnotherapy in, in treatment.

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Ela Law: So, I'm just gonna just tell you briefly about Rachel. She's a chartered psychologist, a hypnotherapist, and a mum of two little ones.

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Ela Law: She combines her lived experience of bulimia recovery with professional expertise and training to support one-to-one clients who feel obsessed with food, hate their body, and use increasingly extreme methods to try and control it, from making themselves throw up to misusing laxatives or weight loss drugs and compulsive exercise.

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Ela Law: At the heart of her practice is a compassionate, individualized, and trauma-informed, multidisciplinary approach.

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Ela Law: focusing on the person rather than a label. And I think… I don't know if you feel the same, Christine, that came out in our conversation, the kind of multidisciplinary approach, because she's got loads of strings to her bow, hasn't she?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is an interesting thing, because…

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Christine Chessman: I don't know, I've… we were talking about EFT as well.

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Ela Law: Which is like.

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Christine Chessman: like tapping.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: which she goes into, I had never done hypnotherapy before, so.

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Ela Law: at some point.

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Christine Chessman: that I'm really skeptical about, but the way she explained it.

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Christine Chessman: sounded like it could be the missing link for a lot of people, who have tried everything and really are still struggling, or really stuck in their disordered eating or eating disorder behaviors. So, listen to the episode, let us know what you think. I really hope it's helpful to you, and we'll see you next week!

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Ela Law: A very, very warm welcome, Rachel. It's so lovely to see you and to have you on the podcast today, so thank you for taking the time.

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Rachel Evans: Thank you for having me. I feel like I should have worn pink, you guys are quite coordinated.

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Ela Law: Oh, yes, we are! We're just the other way around, aren't we? Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Stay away some pink.

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Ela Law: Yeah, Christina's always in pink. I am actually rarely in pink, so it's, yeah, complete coincidence.

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Ela Law: So, Rachel, we would love to talk to you a little bit about your work, obviously, but if you don't mind sharing a little bit about your own story with, food, body image, eating disorders, and, how you got to where you are now, that would be amazing.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, it's so hard for me to keep it in a nutshell, because I think it happened over years, and also, you know, there's so many factors involved in someone's relationship with food, and for me as well, like, the behaviors that I was doing changed over time, and the purpose of those behaviors changed as well, so I feel like growing up.

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Rachel Evans: like, 90s, diet culture, Thin is in, and recently we've heard Thin As Back In, I don't think it was ever out, to be honest, but it was very in. Then I think there was a lot of blatant, like, fatphobia around, like, TV programs and things like that, like, Biggest Loser. Maybe in the 2000s, I would, like, watch it with my mum.

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Rachel Evans: And to be honest, actually, when I usually kind of talk about this, I say that my parents went on some diets when I was younger, but…

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Rachel Evans: I kind of just miss it, because I don't have that many memories of it, but then recently, my dad has been talking quite a lot about losing weight, and I was like, oh, maybe it was there.

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Rachel Evans: more than I gave it credit for, because I've been thinking, oh, maybe that was a small influence, but anyway, who knows? I don't think we always, you know, have the most reliable

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Rachel Evans: Reliable memories and ever know all the factors, but,

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, I've been on a diet off a diet. I kind of had this belief that, like, opposite sex will find me more attractive if I look a certain way, but I'd never really been that interested in boys because I went to an all-girls school, we didn't even have boys to, like, try and look good for, and…

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Rachel Evans: I just did a lot of sports as well, so I was just really busy, I was quite academic, like, I was putting all my focus on those things to be good at those things and get praised with those things. Went to university because that was, like, the thing to do. I studied psychology. I always feel like I've been drawn to this. I did a master's in health psychology.

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Rachel Evans: Mainly because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I did want to work with children, but I didn't have experience in that, so I was like, what do I have experience with? I'd done my…

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Rachel Evans: what do you call it, third year project about blood donation, so I was like, I can probably get on that master's, delay my, like, life choices and getting a job for a little while.

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Rachel Evans: And so then I was reading a lot of papers about the obesity epidemic, and, you know, too much sugar is bad for you, basically because psychologists need to justify their study, and so they put this in, but it's, you know, not with all the nuance.

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Christine Chessman: really, though, it could be. And I thought, if I want to go in health promotion, I have to look a certain way.

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Ela Law: And also, it was, like, 2012, it was the.

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Rachel Evans: I think social media was starting to get a lot bigger then in terms of influencers.

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Rachel Evans: So I was looking at this influencer in Australia with her bikini body guide, and her abs, and her tan.

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Rachel Evans: I'm in England, it's winter, like, I'm not gonna…

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Rachel Evans: have a ton and be eating those foods, but I was really comparing myself.

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Rachel Evans: to that, and thought, like, people aren't gonna respect me. However.

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Rachel Evans: it just sent me down this path of becoming more and more obsessed, cutting more foods out. I was eating, you know, kale and chia seeds, even though I didn't like kale and chia seeds, but, like, this was the good thing.

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Rachel Evans: to do, and I think, looking back on it, a lot of it stemmed from if I was then going to be finishing my master's, and I got a lot of my self-worth from being good at studying, and also it gives you a structure, as well, and I'd stop the sports that I'd done to, like, international level.

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Rachel Evans: And so I wasn't getting that, I wasn't seeing my friends from that, so I think where I…

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Rachel Evans: Actually, looking back, when I was at uni, you know, I did some calorie counting, definitely wasn't eating enough, it was what you might label disordered eating behaviors, but I could always snap out of it.

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Ela Law: After a few months, whereas this time, I didn't snap out of it, it just got progressively more and more.

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Rachel Evans: strict and controlling, I'd say for about a year and a half, but again.

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Rachel Evans: When do you define, this is an eating disorder, or this is disordered eating, or this is a diet?

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Rachel Evans: Essentially then I was living on my own in Singapore, which should have been amazing, but was not amazing, because I was just making myself walk round and round and round. I say, oh, I'm sightseeing, but it wasn't, like, I just had to…

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Rachel Evans: If I wasn't eating enough, I was really scared to eat the local food, when that was something I would have enjoyed in the past, I was quite isolated, I just really didn't enjoy it, and I moved home.

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Rachel Evans: I was really lucky that I could live with my mum and dad when I got home, so I was 24 at this point, and they could see that I was not okay. I would, like, not eat the same food as them. They were trying to me to get help. I obviously didn't want help, because I was, like.

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Rachel Evans: you're eating all this really bad food. Bad food.

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Rachel Evans: promise, but I thought it was bad at the time. Why would I take your advice?

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Rachel Evans: they were like, you're gonna end up in hospital if you keep… so I had lost weight because of it, and I know not everyone in that situation would have done, but I'd lost some weight, but not enough weight.

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Rachel Evans: that the GP would be like, you have an eating disorder, you've got a problem. So I did end up having a bit of private therapy at that point, mainly to complain about my dad, who was on my case, and, like, just worried about me. I think it did shift… it did shake some stuff up.

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Rachel Evans: Because then I started binge eating.

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Rachel Evans: like, I started trying the food, but it was so uncontrollable, and I guess some people might call that extreme hunger.

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Rachel Evans: to me, it felt like binging, like, I would literally wake up at, like, 3am in the morning and go to the kitchen and just start eating.

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Rachel Evans: Because I wouldn't let myself eat that in a day.

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Rachel Evans: And then I obviously put on weight because of that as well, and was really bloated. Also, this whole time, I was exercising multiple times a day. That was, you know, a source of anxiety, all the… all the usual stuff, you can't eat out with your friends, you're hungry, you know, all of those other costs to it.

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Rachel Evans: I guess at that point, you could say it turned into bulimia then, because I started making myself throw up, because I didn't want to have eaten.

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Christine Chessman: -

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Rachel Evans: that… it was the quantity, but it was also the specific food sometimes, because I had so many rules about food.

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Rachel Evans: And in my head, eating whatever food it was, say if I was vegan and I ate something not vegan.

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Rachel Evans: Having that out of my body would be better, but actually there's so much damage that you can do to, like, a whole load of systems in your body from making yourself throw up, but my risk analysis of that situation was very different in that moment.

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Rachel Evans: So I thought I'd recovered, because I was eating more.

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Rachel Evans: I had less food rules, I was still eating healthy, but, you know, I could be a bit more flexible, I was exercising less.

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Rachel Evans: I still needed to do 10,000 steps a day. So I… I thought, oh, this is great, I'm, like, really healthy now. I'm still making myself throw up once a week, but I, like, at least, but I totally discounted that.

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Rachel Evans: was in total denial, because I wasn't restricting

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Rachel Evans: the extent that I was before,

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Rachel Evans: And yeah, then I started a PhD, which is actually something that the therapist had helped me with, in terms of, like, life direction, and a goal, and kind of what to do moving forward. I set up a health food blog.

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Rachel Evans: However, every recipe was like, here's a granola, it's gluten-free. Here's a granola, it's sugar-free. It, like, couldn't ever just be the thing. But, yes, we do need gluten-free granola recipes for people who can't eat gluten.

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Rachel Evans: Or if you just like that recipe, fine, but it was still kind of… I would say it was kind of disordered.

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Rachel Evans: with that, then I became vegan for a while, because I thought that would maybe be the answer.

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Rachel Evans: And I was living with, housemates in my first year of my PhD, so I was still binging and purging, I was still, like, still their food.

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Rachel Evans: From the cupboards, because I felt like I can't help it. So it was still controlling me, but again, I was… I was just in denial until I moved in by myself.

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Rachel Evans: In my second year, and then it just really felt like it spiralled.

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Rachel Evans: so much. In a couple of months, in terms of, like, the frequency.

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Rachel Evans: that these behaviors were happening, before it would only happen at night time, and then it was happening at lunchtime. Then it got to the point that I was waking up in the morning thinking, like, can I walk to the shop and buy some food to binge and purge before I have to be at university? Wow. And I was just like, I cannot…

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Christine Chessman: go on like this. Just a physical toll, as well, of, like.

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Ela Law: Lima.

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Rachel Evans: that I was binging and purging, and just to say.

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Rachel Evans: I just want to say that because that was my experience, but obviously other people have a different experience, and it's not that sweet, that's not an indicator of, you know.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Ela Law: You might need support in that situation, but…

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, and then I guess how I got to be doing what I'm doing now, I just realized I can't keep doing this, I hate my PhD, because I'm putting so much pressure on myself. Honestly, like, that was a big factor in the binging and purging. In the end, I realized, so I did have one session where I had two sessions with the NHS,

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Rachel Evans: The first session was kind of, you know, a general intake, and it really helped me actually realize the binging and purging was about avoidance.

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Rachel Evans: It wasn't in the beginning, but when it got to the end, why it was carrying on was because, like, sorry if this is really, like, quite detailed and graphic for people. Well, not graphic, but, you know, quite detailed.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: If I go home at lunchtime for my PhD, and I binge and purge, it was like giving myself an excuse not to go back.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Rachel Evans: because I just felt so wiped out, and just couldn't really think straight, like, the brain fog.

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Rachel Evans: And I feel like… I don't know how to describe this, but it's like, once you've done it once.

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Rachel Evans: safe and ripped off the band-aid, but, like, you've broken that threshold almost, so then you can do it again and again and again, because you've done it that one time.

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Rachel Evans: And then that becomes a new habit, and then it gets earlier in the day. So I think when I realized this is actually about avoidance.

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Rachel Evans: I could actually apply what I knew about habits, because I'd done habits for my Master's in Health Behaviour Change.

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Rachel Evans: And I was studying about habits and eating for my PhD,

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Rachel Evans: But I just couldn't apply it to myself.

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Rachel Evans: to change, until I, like, had that key…

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Rachel Evans: information, and so, like I say, I hated my PhD,

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Rachel Evans: I did… I did finish it. This is a total side note, but I remember calling my best friend and crying, like, I can't do this, I just want to open, like, a little store that sells energy balls, but you would make no money doing that, you know.

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Rachel Evans: She didn't finish her Masters, for various reasons, some to do with mental health, and, she was basically like, yeah, I really regret not finishing.

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Ela Law: Helpful.

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Rachel Evans: It's me in my corner!

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Rachel Evans: But, you know, I… I'm very pleased that I finished it. I avoided, in other ways, like, I planned my wedding and stuff, while doing my PhD, so I've replaced that behaviour, but, I'd say, like, maybe it took about a year for me to stop binging and purging, but I did feel…

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Rachel Evans: very much like, I need to get this behind me, because I think actually why I wanted to be a psychologist in the first place was to work with science.

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Rachel Evans: Not to research.

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Rachel Evans: But I don't know anyone else who's, like, pursuing psychology. They scare you off clinical psychology. That was, like, so hard to get into, so I didn't bother, and I probably could have tried, at least. But now I do have the lived experience, because I feel very much like… I'm sorry to go anymore, guys.

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Ela Law: No. No, don't.

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Rachel Evans: And when I had the therapist, in the beginning, and then I started binging.

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Rachel Evans: She just didn't really get it.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Rachel Evans: She was like, well, could you not try and do yoga when you wake up in the middle of the night? And I'm like, no, I cannot describe to you, I am compelled to go and do this, even though I obviously don't want to, and I

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Rachel Evans: I hate myself for doing this, but I've got to go and do it.

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Rachel Evans: So I think, you know, because I have that lived experience, when people are telling me various things, I can think, oh, yeah, okay.

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Ela Law: I get it.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: M? Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: This is… I mean, obviously there's so many touchpoints here. Thank you so much for sharing.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: your story with us, Rachel, but I… all I can think of is what I want to know

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Christine Chessman: What, behaviour change…

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Christine Chessman: hacks, or not hacks, but techniques did you use for yourself? So when you're waking up at 3 in the morning with this

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Christine Chessman: extreme hunger or whatever, this absolutely compelling, I need to get up, I need to eat. How, in the moment, did you work through that? Or how did you build in strategies for yourself?

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, so maybe I didn't… it's kind of a hard timeline story, isn't it? So when I was getting up at 3 in the morning, I think that was very much driven by being, like, under-fueled.

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Rachel Evans: And Ella will know more about this, because I've restricted…

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Ela Law: So much, I think my body was just like.

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Rachel Evans: Oh, you're letting me eat now?

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Rachel Evans: I'm going to make the most of this, and actually then.

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Rachel Evans: I did start to get a bit more flexible in the day, because I think part of me realized, if I'm going to eat all this at night, it makes more sense to kind of spread it out a bit more throughout the day, so I'm not so bloated. So I think I did relax my food walls… start relaxing my food walls a bit at that point, which meant that when I woke up, I wasn't so ravenous.

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Rachel Evans: I would still wake up, and it did become quite a habit to do that, but then the amount that I was

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Rachel Evans: eating was getting smaller. I don't have a clear memory as well at that point. I was… I was waking up every day to eat, definitely, for, like, several months, but I'm not sure exactly

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Rachel Evans: if I was purging every time or not, it was kind of like a… a bit of a blur.

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Ela Law: I think I tried to do more… I did start trying to do more positive things for my body.

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Rachel Evans: Like, getting back into swimming and stuff like that. And I think as well, a really key thing at that point was that my world was opening up more, because I, you know, was more willing to go out and eat something with my friends, so then you can have conversations with your friends, you can do more things.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: So I think that helped, and that I had the PhD to, like, focus on…

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Rachel Evans: forwards, and also, I think.

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Rachel Evans: I was, you know, less hungry all the time, I had a bit more energy, so I think that just generally helped itself in a way. I don't think I actively tried the behaviour change stuff, and then…

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Rachel Evans: It was getting better, the waking up in the night, like I say, because I was more fueled, and then it was more related to stress. If I ever woke up in the night, it was usually because I was stressed about something.

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Rachel Evans: And I'd be… I'd usually be able to go and eat something and be like, okay.

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Rachel Evans: just eat something and try and go back to sleep, or be able to talk myself through it. Because actually, when I… when I did my training, with the National Center for Eating Disorders, I do remember the first… it was kind of in blocks, like, the first four-day block, I did wake up in the night, and I was like, oh, joy, this is right.

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Rachel Evans: It's like 2 years since this has been happening, and here I am, probably because I'm stressed.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: everything, but I could, you know, have a conversation with myself around it and, you know, go back to sleep.

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Rachel Evans: And then, I guess the behavior change things, I was looking at it more like a habit, and understanding there's a trigger.

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Rachel Evans: You know, the thoughts, the behaviour, the reward.

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Rachel Evans: because I understood the reward of the avoidance, I could be like, how can I get that in another way? And it's really interesting, because all the time I was looking online, like, go for a walk or read a book.

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Rachel Evans: It did not work.

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Ela Law: Like, I would go for a walk, and I would be thinking exactly what I wanted to have on the way home, or I'd, like, go for a walk and go to a shop.

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Rachel Evans: So it wasn't helpful at all. Whereas when I was like, oh, actually, I do like going for a walk, it makes me feel good, maybe I'll walk, you know, around this park.

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Rachel Evans: And I don't have to go back to university, I'll go for a walk, or the same reading a book. And also, when I lived by myself, it was like a bedslip flat. It was a nice one, it was a new build, but, like, my bed was literally opposite my kitchen.

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Rachel Evans: So it probably didn't really help recovery.

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Ela Law: No.

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Rachel Evans: everything's right there, you can't separate it. So I'd be sitting in my bed trying to read a book, but thinking about opening the cupboard, whereas when I was like, actually.

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Rachel Evans: I don't have to go back to university this afternoon, or I don't have to go straight back after lunch. I would read, like.

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Rachel Evans: I call it, like, a layman's psychology book, like, it's kind of on topic, but it's not, like, an academic book, so I just kind of read stuff like that. I was like, oh, it's kind of like…

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Ela Law: Kind of like work, but not really.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, and that really helped, because I was coming to the idea myself, of like, okay, let me try this, and how it fits in.

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Rachel Evans: The other thing that I did, I think you had mentioned before this about talking about hypnotherapy.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: I actually listened to a hypnotherapy recording that was about stop smoking.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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Rachel Evans: By the time they said smoking, I was like, binging, stop binging.

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Rachel Evans: And…

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Rachel Evans: I think it was really about me just collecting a series of ideas that really resonated with me, because the person on the recording was saying, like.

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Rachel Evans: Oftentimes, smokers, before they even have a cigarette, when they're walking outside, you will start to feel better.

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Rachel Evans: And I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like, if I, for example, would go and walk out to buy more food in the evening.

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Rachel Evans: I would feel better when I was on the way to the supermarket. I hadn't even had a binge, I hadn't even made myself sick.

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Rachel Evans: But I felt better already, and I was like, oh, isn't that so odd? It's not actually the behaviors.

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Rachel Evans: It just took the power away from it.

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Rachel Evans: I was just like, oh my god!

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Rachel Evans: I mean, it didn't stop it, but it did, you know… I'm gonna do an Instagram post about this when I… when I find the right words, but, you know, I had to go through that messy period of going to the supermarket.

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Rachel Evans: Really telling myself, you do not want to do this, putting the food back on the shelves.

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Christine Chessman: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: coming out, it wasn't like everything just stopped, but I think

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Rachel Evans: I was getting these ideas that resonated with me, and being able to see, like, okay.

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Rachel Evans: makes sense why you would keep doing this behavior. If it keeps getting reinforced, how can we

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Rachel Evans: Break that habit.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense, and I often do that with clients, actually. I sort of say, well, look, that behavior is one that has served you in one way or another, but before you do that.

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Ela Law: maybe you can try something different, and I think you're absolutely right. It's very individual, isn't it? It's very much like, for some people, sitting down and reading a book works. For some people, it really doesn't. For some people, going for a walk works, but for some people, it's just like, yeah, what's the point of this? So I think it's about working out, giving yourself some time to work out, well, what is…

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Ela Law: the resource, what's the tool that works for you? And how about trying that before you binge? Maybe trying that before you open the cupboard.

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Ela Law: that takes nothing away, so you're not creating any scarcity, but what you're doing is you're trying something out and seeing if that actually helps you to feel better, so that sounds very much like what you've just described. I really… yeah, I've…

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Ela Law: your whole story that resonates with me, because I also studied psychology, and then I went into, doing a master's in public health nutrition, and it could have gone horrifically wrong, because I also thought that, you know, if you're a nutritionist, you have to look a certain way.

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Ela Law: There's just, you know, you have to be the, you know, the shining example of healthy eating, and you have to, you know, shun all of the, in inverted commas, naughty foods that you shouldn't be having. And a lot of my study maids doing the masters were that.

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Ela Law: you could… I mean, so much disordered eating, but at the time, I didn't spot that at all. You know, someone was eating 5 apples for lunch, and we were all like, oh my god, you're so good!

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Christine Chessman: June.

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Ela Law: You know, those kind of things, they just happen, you kind of get sucked into it, and it sounds very much like you…

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Ela Law: You were on a slippery slope, and it was a gradual way into… from sort of slightly disordered eating into an eating disorder.

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Ela Law: sort of a sort of a, you know, a gradual process. It wasn't just like, okay, here I am, you know, binging and purging. Is that… would you say that's correct?

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, definitely, I think it was gradual, and I think you made a good point as well there about, like, the comments from other people.

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Rachel Evans: like, I remember I lost some weight, during my first year at uni, when I was doing a lot of training.

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Rachel Evans: on purpose, like, I was trying to be careful what I eat, but also, you know, because I was doing more training and getting comments from people about that, so it does just make you think, right, I need to carry on with this, and like I say, at that time, I was on and off diets as well, but then I think

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Rachel Evans: when I was restricting on when I lived abroad, in Singapore, like, those people that I met then had only known me like that, so they very much were like, oh, Rachel's the healthy one. Rachel always brings her own lunch.

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Ela Law: When, like, the culture was to go and have lunch in the canteen.

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Rachel Evans: I was actually really scared to go and have lunch in the canteen, because, you know, I don't know how many calories are in this food, I don't necessarily think this and this about it.

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Rachel Evans: is healthy, you know, eating in front of other people, there was a whole lot, but they just could see, oh, Rachel goes to the gym every day. Rachel walks to work.

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Ela Law: Yeah, buddy.

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Rachel Evans: so humid. Like, people didn't often walk to work because you just step outside and you'd be sweating buckets.

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Rachel Evans: It's… it's really strange, because, like, there was some genuine enjoyment about… like, I did enjoy working out, but I think it's when it changed to that point to be, like.

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Rachel Evans: I feel so guilty and anxious if I don't do it, or if I have

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Rachel Evans: morning, or what if I can't do it later, and then my life

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Rachel Evans: being revolved around it, and I…

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Rachel Evans: I'm a bit sad thinking about this, actually. I haven't thought about it for a while. I nearly did join… so the sport that I did was competitive lifesaving.

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Ela Law: I didn't know that that was an item.

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Christine Chessman: No, that was the thing.

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Rachel Evans: But yeah, there was actually a team at the university that I worked for, I was a research assistant, in Singapore, but then I didn't join the team because, well, I felt a bit old, because I was 24, you know, some people were freshers, but also because I'd been on our national team once, and like, you know.

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Rachel Evans: won a medal and things at international events. So I felt like they were thinking I was really good when I'd not done it for a few years.

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Rachel Evans: So I kind of put that pressure on myself, but, like, it just makes me sad, because I do think, like, what if I… what… I know you can say what if, what if, but I'm like, what if I'd actually done that, and made friends, and may have potentially had such a different experience.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: being there, because that event did give me so much, but also, I didn't have a car, the training was, like, really late at night, I didn't know how to get back to my house.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: you know, there were other factors, but do you know, when you just look back and, like, oh, if I'd made that decision differently.

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Christine Chessman: But I do also think, like, I didn't join the lifesaving team when I did my PhD at Sheffield.

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Rachel Evans: which also I'm a bit sad about, because I wonder if my bulimia, like, wouldn't have got that bad, had I had that to focus on as well, but then I'm also like, well, I was going back home every weekend to see my boyfriend, who's now my husband, and we've got two children.

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Rachel Evans: So, potentially, if I'd done that and been at competitions all the time, I wouldn't have.

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Christine Chessman: God bless.

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Rachel Evans: I am now, so… It's difficult to say, isn't it? What if…

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Ela Law: You could just go down a rabbit hole with the what-ifs, but I think the point you're making is that part of you is sad, because there are certain opportunities you missed because you were in the throes of an eating disorder that stopped you from doing all of those things, and I think that will probably resonate with quite a lot of people on various levels, because you don't have to have an eating disorder to experience that. You know, I know people

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Ela Law: from my group of friends who won't come out because, you know, the dinner falls on a certain night where they're supposed to not eat, and things like that. I mean, there's so much life that's not being lived.

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Ela Law: Because something is dictating to you what you can and can't do, so I imagine that it will resonate with quite a lot of people.

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Ela Law: Can I sort of change back to the hypnotherapy? Because you are trained in hypnotherapy as part of your, sort of, therapeutic toolkit, so to speak.

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Ela Law: We've not really spoken to anyone, Christine, have we, who uses hypnotherapy in their practice? No.

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Ela Law: I would really like to hear how that works with eating disorders in particular, and what kind of… how could we imagine a hypnotherapy session to be?

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Ela Law: With, with a client.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, so different kinds of hypnotherapy are different, as with any.

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Ela Law: Huh.

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Rachel Evans: kind of therapy. And just to say, I think.

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Rachel Evans: When I was doing my undergrad degree, I actually did an essay, that I got an award for about eating disorders and, like, treatment. Did not recognize them when I had an eating disorder, but in that, I was very much like, CBT is the gold standard, and then, like, when it came to me seeking help, I didn't really feel like I wanted

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Rachel Evans: CBT, or what was on offer with NHS, and to come back to that previous conversation why I only had two sessions, then decided to, you know, not partake, so I felt like when I'm setting up a private practice, I do want it to be different.

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Rachel Evans: did that. And so I did training with the National Center for Eating Disorders, along with viruses like CPD.

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Rachel Evans: options, and then I… I… it was probably a year before I trained in hypnotherapy, and you know, my clients were, you know, feeling better about food, about their bodies, you know, but sometimes I just thought, there's something sort of like this that I just feel like we're not getting to.

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Rachel Evans: And then I don't even know how I came across hypnotherapy.

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Ela Law: I didn't really know, probably just got an advert on Facebook for it, or like… The algorithm was strong.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, even then, so that was, like, 2019, yeah, so I did the training. A lot of it was online, like, videos to watch, and then, like, intensive practical, course as well, and, you know, assessments and things.

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Rachel Evans: But basically, I think sometimes when people go into hypnotherapy, they think that, you know, I'll make them be able to dance like a chicken or something, and I say, like, all hypnosis is self-hypnosis.

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Rachel Evans: And when you see someone like Darren Brown, actually a lot of that is showmanship, and he's picking people that are the most adjustable. For that, a lot of it is slight append. What I do more is helping people understand, like, what's been going on with them, so we'll get into, you know, the state…

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Rachel Evans: of hypnosis, which is, like, a slightly different brainwave. Sometimes people say they feel really relaxed.

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Rachel Evans: sometimes people just say, I just felt like I was talking with my eyes shut. I have been the recipient, you know, for my training. I've probably had quite a lot of sessions about different topics.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Rachel Evans: I feel different in different sessions about different… different things, so I'm not exactly sure what it's based on how you feel in the moment. I think it can be a lot of different things. But even when people say that they're talking with that Aisha, I do feel like there's something different about that conversation

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Rachel Evans: That if we just had it as a conversation, like, sometimes the kind that I do is interactive.

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Rachel Evans: And people will say something that they've told me before that they want to do, or like, food isn't scary, or, you know, something like that, but it just seems to land so much differently in hypnotherapy. So the idea is that we're

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Rachel Evans: Bypassing your conscious mind.

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Rachel Evans: To speak to your subconscious mind. And I do… I do kind of feel like it does help people get out of their own way, sometimes, because,

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Rachel Evans: So, the one that I do has… does have a cheesy name. Side note, I do think sometimes people oversell it.

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Rachel Evans: rapid transformational hypnotherapy, and so there would be three sections. So the first section is that we would be going to memories related to the topic that we have picked. So we're asking your brain a question.

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Rachel Evans: Maybe to do. I've really split it down.

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Rachel Evans: Just because, as well, when I've been a recipient, once I had, like, a 3-hour session, I didn't know if I was coming or going, and it probably didn'.

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Ela Law: Wow.

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Rachel Evans: But I was, like, really confused. Yeah. Because I think she was trying to cover too much… too much ever, so, you know, usually with people, we would split it down, so if they're like, I hate my body, I'm binging and purging, you know, we will split that up into, like, okay, what feels like it's the most fundamental thing? Do you feel like body image?

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Ela Law: That we would start with that, or do you feel like…

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Rachel Evans: Is it the binging, or is it specifically the purging? Like, you know, we'll get an understanding of what they think.

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Rachel Evans: consciously. And then, like I say, so the first part is helping people connect with memories and what's underlying this. If someone knows that they have, you know, specific traumatic situations, I can do it a different way to help them feel safer.

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Ela Law: kind of work up to it. You know, there are workarounds, but, you know, assuming someone doesn't.

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Rachel Evans: think they've got a big T trauma, or, like, ongoing traumas. And it's, yeah, it's really interesting. People will come up with things that they either haven't thought about since they happened.

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Rachel Evans: that they didn't really think is relevant, or sometimes things that they're… they've literally told me aren't related. They'll be like, oh, my grandma died when I was 5, or…

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Rachel Evans: like, you know, I've had people say, like, I had cancer when I was a child, but I'm totally fine about it. It's not affecting my binging.

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Rachel Evans: And I've got, okay, alright, I'll take you at your word.

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Rachel Evans: For it, or we might explore it a little bit, but then when you do the hypnotherapy session, sometimes those things are the first things that come up about, you know.

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Rachel Evans: At that time, it was a good thing if you ate lots of food, because your body needs to repair it, and you're still working on that subconscious belief.

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Rachel Evans: Even though the situation that you're in is very different.

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Rachel Evans: Or again, with binging, like, often people go to, like, one of the earliest times when they remember binging, which might be as a child, which might not have been an ongoing situation, but was often a way to cope with emotions.

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Rachel Evans: Because food is usually quite available, well.

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Ela Law: But that might not be accessible to them in the conscious mind. It might just be they're making the connection when you sort of go into something more subconscious.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, I…

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Ela Law: Ugh.

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Rachel Evans: people do know, but like I say, it's just… it's just how it lands a different way.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Rachel Evans: And we'll get 3 or 4 memories, so we'll be able to link them in chronological order as well. Sometimes you see, like, that thing happened, and then it was reinforced by something else.

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Rachel Evans: And, you know, this makes sense why you ended up in this situation. Then the middle situation uses techniques from other modalities, to do with, like, reframing that belief, like, revisiting the situation, being able to see, like, some inner child stuff.

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Rachel Evans: As well, which can be really powerful, you know, if someone, maybe has experienced neglect when they were young, whether that's, like, intentional parental things or, you know, needs not being

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Rachel Evans: not being met, and then them not meeting their needs as an adult, so that can usually be quite… it's quite cheesy, to be fair. It's quite cheesy. But, you know, I think my clients who choose to work for me are quite willing.

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Rachel Evans: to give it a go and, you know, see what happens. So that's kind of the reframing.

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Rachel Evans: And then the final section would be, that the client would just relax, and then I would be talking to them. So, in hypnotherapy, you would usually want to say everything as a positive.

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Rachel Evans: In terms of, like, if I say, you will not binge eat anymore.

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Ela Law: Negative.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, you're making the picture in your brain of binge eating.

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Rachel Evans: So that's not going to help, so we actually really help drill down, okay, what is it that you want instead?

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Ela Law: How do you want to say someone binges in the evening, how do you want to be feeling in the evening? What do you want to be doing?

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Rachel Evans: What do you want to happen if you did get a thought about binging, or you did get that stressful situation?

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Rachel Evans: So I'll use their words that they've told me prior to the session, we'll kind of have a chat about it, but also in the session, the reframes that they've made. And you can do it really, like, you have the most amazing body, and you're so confident, and you're going to wear whatever you want, but I just think people…

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Rachel Evans: Are gonna almost reject that.

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Ela Law: That's right.

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Rachel Evans: like, to usually hate their body. Yeah. So I try and make it more gentle, like, you know, you're learning too, or every day you notice that you feel a little bit more comfortable with yourself, and kind of pitch it. That, but it's, like, very individual.

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Ela Law: I felt like… I mean, you can…

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Rachel Evans: get, like, hypnosis recordings on YouTube, or, like, by…

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Rachel Evans: certain downloads, I think they can also be helpful, but, like.

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Rachel Evans: Obviously, my clients love that, it's so personalized.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, I just… I don't think that's all I would do, ever.

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Ela Law: Because I think there are a lot of other pieces, like, you know, understanding certain things about nutrition.

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Rachel Evans: but sugar.

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Rachel Evans: But I do think… It can be a really big shift for people.

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Rachel Evans: I have had clients who literally stopped binging and purging, and I had a client once who just stopped feeling guilty about eating, and I was like.

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Rachel Evans: And… but the thing is, her guilt wasn't even anything about food.

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Rachel Evans: it was about something else, that I think if I'd had a conversation with her, she wouldn't have told me.

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Ela Law: Right.

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Rachel Evans: That's what it is, that she could lift that. However, I would say, more often than not, it's that maybe someone gets the thought to binge and purge, but it's easier for them to talk back to it.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: And they can apply that, like, it's less intense, so it's not… sometimes it is like, oh my god, and even I'm like, oh, oh, what happened? That was amazing! But usually it's, like, actually.

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Rachel Evans: A helpful step.

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Ela Law: Yeah. And understanding.

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Ela Law: Yeah, it sounds like a really complementary kind of modality to add into a therapy session, if that is indeed something that a client might want to explore. Because I would imagine it's one of those things that people shy away from a little bit, like, oh, I don't want to be mind-controlled, and then there's the resistance, but if you are willing to sort of be open to get into that relaxed state and have those suggestions and

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Ela Law: and talk about it, I think it can be really, really powerful as a sort of complementary

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Ela Law: kind of therapy.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I mean…

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Rachel Evans: I would usually have a conversation like we've just had with clients, and be very transparent about, like.

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Rachel Evans: you know, these are the sections that we're going to go through, and you know, this is, you know, how it can play out.

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Rachel Evans: So, I do tend to work with clients, like, in a package that does include hypnotherapy. Like you say, I wouldn't do it if they really don't want to, but usually people are coming to me because they're like, actually, I'm so fed up with this, and I've tried CBT, or I've tried this other thing, and it hasn't had the impact that I wanted, so actually I'm willing.

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Rachel Evans: Something else ago.

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Christine Chessman: Ella, you use, EFT sometimes, don't you?

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Ela Law: I haven't for a while yet, but I did find that quite, quite a helpful thing for some people.

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Ela Law: Emilizer.

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Christine Chessman: Sorry, AFT for listeners that don't know.

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Ela Law: What was the most…

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Christine Chessman: Emotional freedom technique, or tapping.

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Ela Law: Yeah. I don't know. I really like it. It's… you were a massive fan of it.

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Christine Chessman: Very big fan. I mean, I… I want to do it more, so I…

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Christine Chessman: I kind of, when I do it, it really helps me, and it is that ADHD thing of…

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Ela Law: I do it, it really helps me, but I don't do it. Yeah, it's one of.

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Christine Chessman: those things, isn't it? To get back into.

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Christine Chessman: But it is… it reminded me, from what Rachel was saying.

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Christine Chessman: Because some of the phrases that you were using are kind of very similar to some of the phrases you would say, like, you're learning to accept myself, and the difference being with AFT, you start off with the negative, you tap through.

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Christine Chessman: you know, I'm really anxious, I hit my body, or you would actually say out loud what you're feeling, and then you're tapping the positives, kind of, or the…

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Christine Chessman: the more positives after that, so it is slightly different from that point of view. But I have to say, I would be skeptical about hypnotherapy.

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Christine Chessman: But that's… And that would maybe prevent it working for me.

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Christine Chessman: I think you would have to be open to it, wouldn't you?

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Rachel Evans: Yes, to an extent, so you're not going to be there unless they're.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: as well, actually. Yeah, I forgot to say as well that people… I don't know if I did say it properly, people would listen to the recording, I would make them a recording of the third section, and they would listen to that to almost reinforce those beliefs.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Rachel Evans: going forward, so sometimes people… I really remember this, two clients actually telling me how it had been helpful. One, client, when she started working with me, like, just couldn't make herself food, even though she was an adult, like, her mum had to do it for her, and she was in the kitchen, and she was like, I literally heard you saying to me, like, food is safe.

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Rachel Evans: And she could, you know, do it. And then I had a client who, didn't want to go to school.

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Rachel Evans: And I was working with her then before she went to college, because she wanted to do photography at college, and I made her a recording to listen to on the way to school.

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Christine Chessman: Wow. Every day.

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Rachel Evans: And that was really supportive, so it's like…

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Rachel Evans: I guess it is a bit like EFT in the positive suggestions, and it's that

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Rachel Evans: I'm not trying to tell you anything you don't want, if that makes sense. Like, I'm not trying to push it so far. And also, I think the reason why I didn't…

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Rachel Evans: ever consider hypnotherapy in the first place until I felt quite desperate with binging or purging, was because I was always like, I don't want it to be this magical change, and I don't know why it's happened that someone's done something to me. And also, you can't really measure what's happening the same way you can measure some other kind of things.

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: Apologies, but actually, I think, you know, going through the process of the person being a collaborator.

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Rachel Evans: Get it?

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Rachel Evans: can often be quite positive that they do feel involved, and… I mean, sometimes I have had clients who maybe the memories, are from when they're, like, in their 20s.

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Rachel Evans: And sometimes I do think, like, this is not when it started, but they're not ready to go there.

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Rachel Evans: And, like, that's okay as well. And then maybe, you know, if they want to, we'll have another session, and they might get a memory from earlier, from where it's been…

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Rachel Evans: been coming up, so I think…

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Rachel Evans: I just think different things have their different purposes, if that makes sense. Like, I love EFT as well. I recently did more training

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Rachel Evans: on it, because I think that's so practical that the client can go away and do it.

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Ela Law: And do it, exactly. It's very, sort of… yeah, it's one of those things, once you learn how to do it, you could just do it yourself. It's nice with guidance.

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Ela Law: But I suppose the same with self-hypnosis. Once you know how to do it, to get yourself into that stage, and then, into that state, and then have those recordings, those… it's almost like affirmations, you're creating new brain connections and forming these synapses that then actually become your new truth.

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Ela Law: Whereas, you know, beforehand, your truth might have looked very different. I think it's such a powerful way of…

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Ela Law: You know, recalibrating the brain, which can be so… you know…

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Ela Law: black and white, to kind of open it up to a different way of looking at the world. It's really, really powerful.

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Christine Chessman: I think what Rachel was saying as well was really important, that it's affirmations that you would actually

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Christine Chessman: be able to believe, or… Absolutely. So you can't just go, I love my body, I'm the most beautiful person in the world, because that's… your brain's gonna go, no, no.

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Ela Law: Yeah, that's the beauty of it, isn't it? That the client kind of comes up with those suggestions almost by, you know, you having that conversation with them. I love that! That's… it's a really… it's a really interesting…

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Ela Law: thing to add into any kind of client work, I think.

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Christine Chessman: Well, it's interesting, the comparison that you made with CBT as well. I've had CBT in the past, and I… I find it doesn't go to that… maybe I'm wrong, because I haven't studied it in that way, but it is… doesn't go to that depth. It doesn't go to the memories when you were a child, or the traumatic experiences you may have had. It's very much…

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Christine Chessman: getting you through a certain point. So, I had it for body dysmorphia, kind of more OCD-type things, and it was brilliant, because it got me past a really sticky spot that I couldn't get past on my own, but it did not

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Christine Chessman: dig anywhere down, so it didn't remain. So I find it helpful in the moment.

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Christine Chessman: But I felt it was just scraping the surface, it wasn't really… and it sounds like hypnotherapy can be… it can actually go a little bit deeper, does that…

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Christine Chessman: ring true, it sort of…

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Rachel Evans: I think that's my experience.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: that's when I tend to just… would suggest it, like, in the sequence of sessions I have with clients, when maybe we've had a few sessions, maybe we… I don't do CBT as per the book, but you know, there's those questions about challenging thoughts.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Rachel Evans: You know, maybe we've done some of that, but they're like, no, it's still here, it still feels true.

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Rachel Evans: To me, like, what else could we do?

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Rachel Evans: And also, I think the recording and being in that state of hypnosis is quite, you know, regulating through your nervous system as well, so there's that element

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Rachel Evans: to it.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Have you ever done a LO?

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Ela Law: Hypnosis? Hypnotherapy? No, I haven't.

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Christine Chessman: I did something, I don't know if it… it is hypnotherapy, it sounds like it's really similar. I did birth trauma counselling, but it was, like, through visualizations, and

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Christine Chessman: you had to kind of visualize a video of the birth playing, and you had to be sitting in a place that was your happy place, which mine was the south of France in this lovely villa that we used to go to, sitting by the pool, and you had to play the video, and keep recording it, and keep going past it, and keep going past it, and then take it out and break it. And it was this amazing sort of visualization that

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Christine Chessman: that was trying to get you to face it, but see that there was no… it couldn't hurt you now, it was very different, and it was… is that anything similar, or is that completely different, Rachel?

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Rachel Evans: I think it sounds similar. I also do neuro-linguistic programming, and it sounds similar to some stuff in that as well, about, like, your representation of the

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Rachel Evans: event or the format, if you change… it's a bit technical language, isn't it? But if you change how you almost picture it in your mind…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, yeah.

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Rachel Evans: It changes how you feel about it, and changes how you act.

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Rachel Evans: On it as well, so there's techniques like, say if you…

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Rachel Evans: Almost, like, get the picture in your head about what it's like to binge.

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Rachel Evans: or purge. Like, some people are like, I've got this little video in my head when I think about it, or a snapshot, or a color, and then almost if you imagine that going further away, or, you know, maybe poking at black and white instead of color, actually that can change how intense you feel about the

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Rachel Evans: the thoughts, or that urge. I guess with clients, I will be able to, you know, get feedback from them about what their picture's looking like, and, you know, how to change it, but, like, I think those things can actually be quite impactful, but I think it's about, like.

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Rachel Evans: I hope my skill is knowing when to use what when, with the client.

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Christine Chessman: But it seems that a really… because you can often get stuck in an eating disorder, and this feels like for clients that, kind of, are really struggling with relapsing, and really struggling to pull themselves out over many, many years, it's an approach that would be really worth trying, wouldn't it?

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Ela Law: Because it might just be that little…

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Christine Chessman: I don't know. It just might have the impact that other forms of therapy have not been having for that individual.

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Christine Chessman: I don't know, it's interesting, isn't it?

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Ela Law: I love it, and I do think that, you know, lots of people are very, sort of, hung up on one modality, or one therapy form, and I love that you are so… you've got so many strings to your bow, really, to kind of…

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Ela Law: pick and use what you think is the most appropriate thing for that particular client. I think that is worth so, so much to have someone with that expertise to kind of say.

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Ela Law: I wonder if we should maybe have a look at this, or we could try that, and offering options. I think that's fabulous, that's such a, such a…

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Ela Law: Valuable thing to offer.

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Christine Chessman: In terms of yourself, sorry, Rich, so I was cutting you off.

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Rachel Evans: I've tried to be discerning in that, I had EMDR for birth trauma, and I was a bit like, oh, could I do EMDR? And I thought, no, because I feel like the purpose of that is already filled by other things.

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Ela Law: Okay.

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Rachel Evans: in my business, so right now, I feel like I'm trying to be like, right, I've got this

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Rachel Evans: his map, are there any little areas that maybe we could add something else? Because I do love training.

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Ela Law: And, you know, learning more, or meeting new people on the training course, and so I'm kind of just going down the route of different CPD.

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Rachel Evans: smaller courses at the minute. Yeah. A few hours, rather than big, big commitments.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: This is also something that we should speak about in another episode, is birth trauma, because the amount of people who have never had any help, any support.

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: And have considerable birth trauma is… is vast. So anytime I'm sitting in a room with another mum, it goes back to the birth story, like, 9 times out of 10. And it is… it's a really interesting one, because I had birth trauma counselling

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Christine Chessman: 9 years after my traumatic birth, because I still…

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Ela Law: Really felt it.

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Christine Chessman: And it was… it was… it was like a… a test scheme. I was a guinea pig for it, but it was… I felt so grateful to actually have that experience, and so many women don't realize that they need it or advocate for themselves, and the NHS obviously can't provide.

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Ela Law: Bye.

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Christine Chessman: kind of support for people, but yeah, sorry, sideline, but I just think that's a really important thing to… to bring up.

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Ela Law: And I wonder how many repercussions that has on other aspects of life, including your relationship to your body, and with food, I mean, there must be links, for sure, so…

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Christine Chessman: 100%.

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Ela Law: Yeah, brilliant.

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Ela Law: Rachel, thank you so much. We've taken way… way more of your time than we had planned, so really appreciate you being here and coming on and being so open and sharing your own story with us and anyone who's listening. So, tell us where people can find you. We'll obviously also put that in the show notes, but what's the best place for getting in touch with you?

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Rachel Evans: Yeah, so my Instagram is rachel.evans.phd. I'm most active on Instagram, I don't really do the other social media, there's only so many hours in the day.

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Ela Law: It's good to pick one that you like, and then leave it at that, yeah.

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Rachel Evans: I don't even like Instagram, to be honest. There's so many adverts.

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Ela Law: I know.

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Rachel Evans: much, I never get trolls, to be honest, but I feel like I still get the negative impact reading other people's comments section and stuff, so…

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Ela Law: Mmm.

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Rachel Evans: But, you know, there are other positives, from Instagram. So yeah, Instagram, my…

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Rachel Evans: Website is eatingdisorderTherapist.co.uk, and I've also got a podcast.

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Rachel Evans: Just eat normally, which you will find Ella and Christine on.

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Christine Chessman: Yay! Yay!

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Ela Law: Exciting! That's very exciting.

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Christine Chessman: But yeah, thank you so much for joining us, Rachel, and we'll look forward to speaking to you again soon.

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Christine Chessman: Bye!

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Ela Law: Bye!