Why Eating Disorders Are Really About Our Relationship with Our Bodies.

This is our first episode of 2026 and it is one that we both feel incredibly passionate about. We explore why fitness spaces can be high risk environments for eating disorders.

Sophie, founder of ED Informed, joins us to discuss how diet culture, harmful fitness messaging and a lack of staff training leave many people vulnerable and unsupported.

We start by discussing some common misconceptions about eating disorders (this will shock you) Did you know that only 6% of people with eating disorders are in the "underweight" category?  We talk about the hidden signs trainers often miss and unknowingly exacerbate, and the fine line often between performance-focused training and disordered exercise behaviours.

Sophie shares her story and how ED Informed first came into being; the urgent need for mandatory ED-awareness training in fitness spaces, and practical steps fitness professionals can take right now.  Most gym goers have experienced weight-centric or body-shaming rhetoric, and this is incredibly damaging for our long-term relationships to movement and their bodies.

If you'd like to learn more about ED informed and the work Sophie does, visit: https://www.edinformed.org/learn-more

To take part in the survey mentioned, click here:

Take the survey

To sign the petition to recognise Eating Disorders in UK Health Policy:

Sign the Petition

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So, Ella, this is our first episode in 2026.

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Ela Law: 2026, Happy New Year!

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, I suppose. Happy New Year, everybody. And yeah, don't sign up to any gym memberships in January, just reject them all. Just sit at home, and hibernate, and keep warm, and watch Stranger Things and the trip.

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Ela Law: gummy foods.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, just ignore them. Oh, it's just finished Stranger Things. Don't you say anything.

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Ela Law: I'm not saying anything, but it was epic.

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Christine Chessman: Don't… I don't… we've got 3 episodes left.

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Ela Law: Oh my god.

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Christine Chessman: So anyway, today we've got a very, very special guest, and this is somebody that I've been connected to via HopeVargo. If you look at Dump the Scales on Instagram, we'll put all of this in the show notes.

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Christine Chessman: And Sophie, is… let me just read her bio for you. Sophie is a final year nursing student and the founder of ED Informed. Her work is rooted in lived experience of an eating disorder and years spent as a competitive swimmer. Having witnessed and navigated recovery in a culture that normalizes and praises disordered routines.

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Christine Chessman: She's now campaigning to shift health policy and safeguard those at risk. Her focus… now, this is what's really interesting for us. Her focus is on ensuring gyms and fitness spaces are informed, equipped, and empowered to recognize eating disorders, support those who are struggling, and signpost them to appropriate help.

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Christine Chessman: So that's… I mean, that's amazing work that she does. Absolutely amazing.

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Ela Law: It's so important. So, so important. It's something, I think she mentioned that right at the beginning, that

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Ela Law: for a lot of people, that doesn't even register how important that is. A, because it's so normalized, the kind of language that's used around fitness and, in the fitness industry, but also because

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Ela Law: you know, if you're… you're not aware of what's lacking until someone points it out, and then you think, oh my goodness, of course, this is essential, this should be part of every training, this should be part of every gym contract, that there is some sort of eating disorder-informed, resource available. I mean, this is…

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Christine Chessman: I mean, there'.

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Ela Law: Serena, really.

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Christine Chessman: There's a lot of talk now about being trauma-informed.

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Ela Law: Hope.

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Christine Chessman: That this can also become

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Christine Chessman: as prevalent, sort of ED-informed. I don't, you know, and I think… please listen to the episode, because she really breaks down why she's trying to do what she did, why she feels so passionately about it, and the need for actual education on eating disorders, because many of us probably think we know what an eating disorder is, but have no real lived experience of it.

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Christine Chessman: So please listen to the episode. Sophie is amazing, we will definitely have her back on. And I find a lot of her words really helpful, for myself in terms of, kind of, how to navigate your exercise routine as somebody who has struggled with an eating disorder. So listen till the end, and we…

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Ela Law: Share it with any fitness professional you know.

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Christine Chessman: Share it with anybody, you know.

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Ela Law: Anybody, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, if you… if you're a gym owner or member, share it with any gym space, certainly, but please listen, and we appreciate you. Thank you so much.

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Christine Chessman: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Find Your Strong podcast. We've got the amazing Sophie with us today. Hi, Sophie!

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soph: Hello, thank you for having me.

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Christine Chessman: Sophie is from ED Informed, and she's going to be telling you quite a lot more than I am going to be able to in the next one minute. So, I'm going to hand it straight over to Sophie. Sophie, so really, as Ella and I have explained to you, we are very off-the-cuff

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Christine Chessman: unorgan… not unorganized, Ella's organized.

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Christine Chessman: over the place. We want you to just…

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Christine Chessman: tell your story. We would love to hear how things started for you in terms of

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Christine Chessman: creating ED informs, and, you know, what was the start? What really gave you the idea, or what… what fueled your passion to kind of bring this work to the world?

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soph: Yeah, it's a great question, and one that I'm probably not going to explain very well, but, I was a competitive swimmer for 15 years, so I was really used to kind of being in these high-intensity, competitive, rigorous environments.

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soph: training up to… I think I got up to about 20, 22 hours a week at one point, so it was… it was a lot. And I… I loved it, I truly loved it, but it did come with quite a lot of pressure, and obviously, I was… I don't know if I said I was a swimmer, or if I just said I was an athlete, but I was a swimmer, and I obviously was in a swimsuit a lot, I became quite aware of my body, and I'd kind of spent my whole life actually trying to

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soph: get bigger and more muscly, because I equated muscular body with a faster body, and a lot of the people around me were a lot bigger than me, and that was something I kind of aspired to. So, I became increasingly aware of my body image as I grew up, and within the athlete space was very…

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soph: Aware of how… what my body looked like might equate to my performance.

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soph: However, I had a great relationship with food, and overall.

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soph: a healthy relationship with exercise, albeit there was some stress. And then it was in, kind of, my… towards the end of my university degree, where I was also

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soph: kind of approaching the end of my swimming career, I started to think a lot about what the heck am I gonna do when I'm done with this? Because all I've known for the last 15 years is being a student athlete, being, you know, all my spare time is used up by swimming, and I… I don't really know what I'm… what I'm gonna do. I was also studying in Canada, that's another story.

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soph: My family moved to the States when I was 17, then I went to Canada for uni, because I wasn't quite ready to come back to the UK, but equally, tuition in America is ridiculous. So I was kind of recruited to swim there.

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soph: And then, I was in my last… my last year, last two years, and I was thinking ahead, well, where am I going to base myself in terms of country? Grew up in England, my parents are in America, I've studied in Canada, all my friends are here.

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soph: all I know is swimming, I think I want to… I was studying psychology, I was like, I think I want to pursue psychology, but I don't really know what that looks like, and I started… I started noticing a real shift in my mood, where my mood just kind of, like, went down the path.

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soph: And it was as I was entering my last year, where it also happened to be COVID, everything, like, shit kinda hit the fan, and I just…

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soph: fell apart, really. I ended up moving back to England, which was completely unplanned, on my own. My parents stayed in the States, and my mood was really, really low, and I'd…

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soph: I'd now finished swimming earlier than anticipated due to COVID, and I just kind of fell into this hole of, like, what am I? Who am I? What am I gonna do?

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soph: hating my body, and that was kind of a new thing for me. I'd… I'd kind of begun to grow more uncomfortable in my skin, I think, and I had gained weight throughout uni, that's normal, that's normal was just kind of getting older, but also I'd gotten bigger, I'd gotten more muscly, which was always what I'd wanted, and then it kind of got to this point where I didn't really have the purpose and the drive of swimming, and I just felt, like, really horrible in myself. And I think with

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soph: Falling out of this…

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soph: I, you know, I'd always kind of experienced the joy of movement, and now I felt like I was becoming a slave to movement, and my… my thought process around movement was really shifting. My body was also changing, as I wasn't competing as much… I wasn't training at all. I wasn't moving, really, as much at all, and I just…

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soph: I noticed a shift in my relationship with food, and it wasn't a good one. I became very restrictive, and I kind of fell into that spiral of an eating disorder, which was horrible.

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Christine Chessman: I think during COVID.

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soph: obviously everyone, it was a struggle for everyone, but I think we noticed a real change in social media around that time as well, and…

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soph: obviously being stuck in our homes, there was a real push to kind of get moving and stay active, and that's great, and I think when it's done with the right intentions, exercise is always a great thing, we know that, and it has so many health benefits. But at that time, I think there were a lot of people who were really vulnerable, and I'd already kind of…

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soph: beginning to fall in that cycle of identity and my body changing, all of that, I was in a really vulnerable place, and I think, although I myself didn't fall into any extreme disordered exercise, those cognitions were definitely there, and I think what I saw on social media definitely influenced me, and definitely,

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soph: kind of pushed me into this disordered eating spiral that then kind of was a full-blown eating disorder, and I became really unwell. So…

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soph: it was kind of following that, and then recovering in these last few years in this society that's just become increasingly focused on diet and fitness culture, and this really weight-centric health policies that we have that are kind of driving so much into tackling obesity, which is great and a really important health goal. However, it completely ignores the other side of the coin.

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soph: And noticing as well, kind of when I became…

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soph: you know, healthier, and was re-engaging with exercise in a healthier way, and not in an elite sports environment. Then being really cognizant of, like, messaging in gym environments and… and the way gym and gym classes, like fat burn and all of these things, like.

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soph: they make you look at your body in a way where it's a project to fix, and not, like, inspiring that joy of movement, or necessarily just being performance-focused, which is what I'd really been used to before.

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soph: So I think recovering through that, and then re-engaging… I've started swimming again now, I go, like, once or twice a week, and I absolutely love it. But being in a general leisure center, not in, like, an elite sport environment, and

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soph: being aware of that messaging, and seeing different people around, and noticing those shifts on social media, I was like, there is so much in the fitness space that really concerns me, and…

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soph: kind of seeing it from both sides of the coin, and seeing how fitness and health, movement can be so great, but also really quite harmful if it's… if, you know, there are those vulnerabilities there.

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soph: I really wanted to see some change, and I kind of had this idea of ED-informed… not necessarily the name, but kind of the concept of bringing safeguarding measures and training to the fitness space for a while, and it started during COVID, actually, when I was quite unwell myself.

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soph: And it wasn't until, I started my Masters, which I started in 2024, and last year, at uni, there was this event called Policy Idol, which I think is a play on, pop idol. And it was, like, coming to present a policy idea, and it could be anything, and you had 3 minutes to pitch it. And I was like, you know what?

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soph: Love that. Why not, like, pursue this and pitch it as an idea? So I did that, and that is where it all kind of took off. So that was last April, and it's been… been since then that I was like, right, let's… let's kind of do this. It got a great reception. I connected with some representatives at Beat, and I was encouraged to kind of make a social media page, and…

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soph: that's where I kind of all grew from, and I'm aware that was a very long answer to your question, but that was the background.

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Ela Law: Wow.

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Ela Law: Thank you for sharing all of that, and also for sharing your own personal story with us. That's really… I'm pretty sure that'll resonate with other people. Maybe not the moving to America thing, but in general. It sounds very much like…

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Ela Law: you noticed…

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Ela Law: things gradually, like, you noticed that there was a need for change. I love the idea of Policy Idol, can I just say that? That's such a good idea. And you said it got a good reception. How did people respond to that? Because I think we all live in a world where it's so normalized.

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Ela Law: the messages in gyms are normalized. Oh, you're here to burn, to lose weight, to fix yourself, to, you know, transform yourself. It's just so normalized that no one bats an eyelid. And then you come up there, 3 minutes, pitching an idea of, like, we need to teach people how to do this properly, and to be noticing whether there's something going on with someone over-exercising, or…

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Ela Law: Whatever it is. How did people respond? Did they, like.

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Ela Law: oh my god, she's got point, or where they're like, what is she on about? What was the general, sort of…

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soph: Yeah, well, I was really worried about that, because I was like, how is this going to be received? And obviously, it's quite a sensitive topic to talk about, and I think with

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soph: with a lot of people kind of in the mindset that exercise can only be a good thing, and weight loss can only be a good thing. I felt like I was really kind of going out there to say this, but

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soph: No, it was… it was quite different to how I imagined. I had a lot of people come up and say, like, why doesn't this exist already? Like, I'd never even put two and two together that this could be a problem, and I think when you're… when you're in that space yourself, and you've struggled with disordered eating, or with your relationship with exercise, it's like, it's so blink and obvious.

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soph: But for those that maybe haven't had that same thought process before, or just not really kind of put those two things together, it's a bit of a mind-blowing concept, but equally one that everyone recognizes.

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soph: is probably something that should exist already. So, it was great to have that reception, and I think I… I kind of also took a bit of a risk in using my three minutes. I was quite, I got, like, a mentor, there was, like, a heats and a final. It was all quite official, but I got, like, a mentor in between to kind of refine my pitch, and, they were kind of encouraging me, you know, a bit on the background, but then you just need to get into the pitch part, and I'm like.

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soph: But I can't… I can't do anything unless I get people to understand.

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Christine Chessman: Understood.

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soph: what eating disorders really are, and how they present, because there are just such entrenched stereotypes that this is a visible problem, and that it's, you know, always people are underweight. Firstly, about 6% of people with an eating disorder are underweight, so that's just not… not relevant. I mean, it is in some cases, but largely it's not.

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soph: And that, you know, it's only females, it's only white women, it's only young people, and that's just so not the case. The eating disorders do not discriminate, they can affect anyone, and you can be in a completely healthy-looking body, and

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soph: probably eating, most people who eat smaller, they eat, and actually be really, really struggling, so I really needed to use some of that 3 minutes to kind of put that across and challenge that thin ideal and diet culture messaging that's being repackaged as kind of wellness and health.

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soph: it was… I was really grateful for how it was received, and it's… it's obviously enabled me to kind of keep going and do all of this, so it's been… it's been positive, really positive.

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Christine Chessman: It's so interesting, isn't it, that the behaviors, the very disordered behaviors are normalized

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Christine Chessman: you know, at the moment, in social media and Hollywood, it's all being normalized, but there's so much weight stigma at the same time, isn't there?

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Christine Chessman: But if you're in the… and this is what… and if people in larger bodies are doing the behaviors that are being normalized, they're kind of… do you know what I mean? It's not…

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Ela Law: being applauded, and they're being like, oh, you're doing a good job. I think that's where the obesity narrative, comes in quite badly, because as long as we still see being in a larger body as a problem, and an illness, and by default, something bad.

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Ela Law: We're fueling that kind of, you know, if you are in a larger body and you use eating disorder behaviors, that's great. If you are in a smaller body, it's not.

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Ela Law: That is just so wrong, and I think… I think both of those narratives need to go hand in hand. We need to stop talking about being in a larger body as an illness.

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Ela Law: And likewise, we need to highlight the fact that eating disorders don't discriminate, they're not in a particular… they don't show up in a particular body, you cannot see…

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Ela Law: in the majority of cases, whether someone is struggling with food or exercise, and I think it's really important to tie those two together.

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Christine Chessman: And I don't know if that's your experience, but it kind of, in my experience, as soon as your weight restored, if you were underweight in terms of your eating disorder, oh, you're fine! Discharge, bye. And…

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Christine Chessman: It's… I had a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with atypical anorexia, and then she didn't feel she was doing it well enough.

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Christine Chessman: And it's these, you know, I think what you said there, 6% of people are underweight, that is huge, and that needs to be kind of said again and again and again, because I don't think that really sinks in for people. We've all got a very specific view in our heads of what having an eating disorder means.

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Ela Law: Yeah. And we need to challenge that.

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Christine Chessman: Because it's just not… doesn't reflect reality, it doesn't reflect what's actually going on. Absolutely.

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soph: Absolutely, absolutely, and it's not… it's not necessarily about the behaviors or the appearance, it's about that relationship, like, that person's relationship with food, their relationship with their body, their relationship with exercise, because that's where the disorder shows up. And I think there's so many people who are…

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soph: who are struggling, and maybe don't even recognize it as struggle right now, because it's… it's being promoted as such a great thing, and especially in January, I hate January. It's everywhere, like, ditch this, diet this, exercise this, like, it's… it's just… it's inescapable, and obviously with the rise of the Zempic, and it's really, really scary, and social media particularly, like, these algorithms just amplify this extreme content, and we've got all this edited

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soph: filtered realities that are taken as normal and achievable, and it's terrifying because little ones, you know, of younger and younger ages are growing up with these screens in their hand, that that was all just a click away. And that is shaping their world that they're growing into, and I find that that is just…

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soph: that's just terrifying. And Ella, as you were saying with, kind of commenting on people's bodies and behaviors, whether you're larger or smaller, and how that's perceived, it's…

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soph: I saw a video on TikTok the other day, and it was a very petite lady eating a lot of food, and

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soph: all the comments were all really positive and great and go you, and then a really similar video of someone doing exactly the same thing in a larger body, and the comments were disgusting, and it's just… it's awful. Like, we've made it far too acceptable to comment on people's bodies and behaviors when it is, quite frankly, none of our business. It's horrible. It's really horrible.

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Ela Law: You're right.

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Christine Chessman: But this… this is… this is a question that we have been going back and forward with, because I think it is important to talk about the cultural shift in body size.

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Christine Chessman: not personalizing it, not calling anybody out, that's something we don't really engage with or believe in, because that's not fair on an individual. But there's certainly a cultural shift towards extreme thinness.

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Christine Chessman: Is that… do you know what I mean? So we… is that… you know, I don't ever want to comment on somebody's body, and I don't think it's ever appropriate, but I still want to comment on the fact that there's a very dangerous shift happening.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean?

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soph: I completely understand that. Yeah, it's not about targeting individuals, it's not about shaming people, it's about challenging the industry, it's about challenging policy, and it's about challenging this culture that we've just made acceptable when actually there is a large amount of harm happening behind that.

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soph: And I think… I think that is… that is a difficult place to tread,

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soph: I think it… it really is…

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soph: targeting, you know, the top, not the people who are casualties of the system that we're all kind of under.

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Ela Law: So, in an ideal world, what would you like to see happening in gyms and fitness spaces? Well, because what we've just said is how difficult it is to

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Ela Law: because we can't see someone with an eating disorder, or someone who struggles with, their relationship with exercise or food, that's not always visible, or as you said, in most cases, it isn't visible. How do we… how…

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Ela Law: Where do we start with training people to…

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Ela Law: to maybe check in, to assess, to notice, to… to do something about it. Where do we… what would you like to see happening?

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Ela Law: I think, as I said before, like, education is such a powerful tool. I think the first thing is.

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soph: challenging those stereotypes and highlighting that harm is about, kind of, a relationship with movement, and not just what it looks like on the surface, or what someone's body looks like. I think it's about bringing those broader definitions of health into these spaces. You know, we've… we've really narrowed our definition of what health looks like at the moment, particularly in this kind of weight-centric culture that we're in, and

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soph: Seeing that as more… more holistic, you know, about the physical, the psychological, the social, the emotional, the spiritual, all of those things, like, that… that's what constitutes someone's health.

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soph: I think being mindful of, kind of, the language we're using around foods, you know, not using binary or polarizing language that

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soph: shames people's decisions, you know, junk food, there is no such thing as junk food, like, food is food, it's neutral, there's nothing moral about it.

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soph: And I think… being…

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soph: just, I think, as fitness professionals, kind of being attuned to subtle shifts in how someone is showing up, you know, are they becoming more withdrawn? Are you noticing more comments around, kind of, their body? Are you noticing an uptick in, you know, how much they're coming to that space, and how much they're working out, or how long they're working out? Sometimes, as we've said, not always, and often not at all.

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soph: There might be weight changes, and I think it's… it's about noticing those things and not… not commenting on them, but kind of commenting on those behavioural or…

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soph: emotional shifts, and not commenting necessarily, but drawing attention to those, and if you… if you think, you know, there might be someone struggling, kind of… kind of going after them and… and just… just making that human connection, I think that's the first thing, kind of creating a… a space where someone feels safe to be vulnerable and safe to be honest, and…

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soph: saying, you know, like, I've noticed you've become a bit more withdrawn recently, is everything all right? Or, you know, I've seen you a lot at the moment, you know, what's kind of motivating you to come so much? Or… I think those things are the things we need to be… we need to be looking at, and just mindful of how we're showing up, and

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soph: I think as a fitness professional, like, trying to model… model those… those…

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soph: behaviors and the way that you're referring to your own body or, your own exercise, I think it's… yeah, it's such a challenging thing, but I think we definitely need

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soph: More policies to safeguard people who are vulnerable or at risk, and…

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soph: I'd love to see that starting with mandatory training for coaches, so that they know what an eating disorder is, and they know what that looks like, and they feel confident and empowered to… to safeguard and have a bank of resources that, you know, they can bring to people who might be struggling, and…

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soph: you know, signposting to beat, or a GP, or a wellbeing service, and making sure that those people are properly supported, because, you know, it's not your role to be a therapist or a doctor, but you're in a really powerful position to kind of pick up on those subtle behaviors, and

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soph: And those… those shifts in intention, and I think that can be a really, a really, really powerful place to start.

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Christine Chessman: I… so I've kind of almost…

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Christine Chessman: taking myself out of the game, in the sense that I don't work at a gym, I work for myself. And that's a lot easier, because I can… I'm a non-diet fitness professional, so people, if they're coming to me, pretty much are aware that it's not about weight loss, and…

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Christine Chessman: If they want to lose weight, I'm probably not the coach for them, and I always kind of say, I… you might lose weight, you might not, you might get… it's… I can't guarantee, I just want to help you build strength and feel a bit better in your body, that's kind of…

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Christine Chessman: And I… I think I still struggle with gyms. I still struggle with gyms, and I had an experience quite recently, a few years ago, where there's a massive scale in the gym, and I was doing, heavy wits, and the PT that… it was… he was very nice. I had mentioned I had a eating disorder history, and he said, oh, no, but I've got to weigh you.

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Christine Chessman: And I said, I don't… I don't want to be weighed. And he said, oh, scientifically, you need to be weighed to be able to lift this weight.

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Christine Chessman: And I was like, but I really don't want to be weighed, so I had to stand on this big…

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Christine Chessman: Girl in the middle of the gym.

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Ela Law: And I said, I don't want to know my weight, but he sent it to me, and it ended up really…

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Christine Chessman: messing with me for quite… and I'm years beyond an eating disorder, but I haven't… I've never owned a scale since, because it does…

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Christine Chessman: It's something that I'm not comfortable with. I just never weigh myself, it's not something…

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Christine Chessman: that I need to do. And I think that's… it's exactly that misinformation and lack of education that is just so sorely lacking, and he was a very nice person. It wasn't that he just didn't realize

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Christine Chessman: The harm that it might do.

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Ela Law: He was just following his, like, his protocol, or whatever he's been told, and… Absolutely. No malice, no, you know…

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Christine Chessman: And I think that's where your point is so important, Sophie, it's the education that's needed, isn't it?

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Ela Law: Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: And people aren't actually… they think, oh, eating disorders, but they don't actually know what it means.

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Ela Law: No, I think you're so spot on. My concern is that if you have a PT, and if you work with someone one-on-one, or in a small group.

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Ela Law: it's… it's a lot easier to build that relationship and to build that safe kind of space where you can say, actually, I've noticed you've been coming, like, 5 times a week, that's a lot more than you… what is… are you okay?

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Ela Law: Those people that want to do that, they slip right through the net if they go to a massive gym, because no one cares, it's all about customers, it's all about getting people through the door and getting your membership fees, and, you know, they're thinking, oh, okay, well, they're all…

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Ela Law: they're all doing what they need to do. I don't know their name, so they're just here. I'm just thinking…

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Ela Law: that probably needs a slightly different approach, and I think we probably need to start with, you know, when people come through the door, how… is there… is there some sort of assessment? Is there some sort of…

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Ela Law: You know, and obviously with assessments, people can lie. It's, you know, nothing is a fail-safe there. So I'm… I don't know about the statistics there, how many people actually work in a smaller setting.

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Ela Law: with… fitness professionals compared to how many people use the gym, but I would guess that

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Ela Law: the latter outweighs the former massively, because it is just a cheaper, more cost-effective way of exercising. So, how do we tackle that? Is there something that we can do there?

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soph: Yeah, you're so right, and obviously, if you work on a smaller scale or one-to-one, you have a lot more control over how things are done, your environment, all of that. And it's those large, kind of, corporate gym chains that are really challenging to tap into, and that's where I'd really love to see the change. Because as you say, most people

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soph: that's where they're going. I think there needs to be better screening. As you say, people can lie, but I think something that's really important to remember with, you know, disordered eating, disordered exercise.

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soph: Recovery and getting better is, ultimately, it has to be self-led and self-motivated.

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soph: even if that person does lie on that form, it's gonna spark some self-reflection. It's gonna kind of plant a seed, and you don't know how powerful just planting that seed could be. I think there is ultimately a duty of care there, and I think that's where I'm really trying to kind of link in with the policy side, and…

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soph: have that properly, formally recognized that there is a duty of care for these gyms, and they do need to better be screening upon

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soph: You know, signing up for membership.

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Ela Law: And…

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soph: I think if we can get the trainings to be mandatory as well, and I think there's definitely something around

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soph: kind of monitoring attendance patterns, and if they reach a certain threshold, or something, that maybe there is, some kind of flag that's raised on a system where someone can then send an email or meet someone in person and just kind of do a little check-in.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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soph: And then I think it's honestly about just having resources available in those spaces. I always think of it, kind of, as, like, the Ask for Angela posters, or the Samaritan's

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soph: you see on the back of toilet doors, like, it would be so easy to put those in a changing room. Just something that, again, sparks that self-reflection, some… a prompt for someone to think about their relationship to food and exercise, something as simple as saying, you know, are you always thinking about food and exercise? Because I think just that question, actually, if someone sat and thought about it for a few seconds, they might realize how much those things are

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soph: taking up time in their day-to-day life, and having a QR code or a link or something to it.

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soph: put a beat, or mind, or some kind of resource, or questions to ask your GP, or… it literally could be anything, and… because right now, there's nothing, and I think there's so much…

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soph: potential for there to be change in those spaces. It's just about, kind of, getting in the door and having someone willing to welcome them.

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soph: And ultimately, I think if you… if you improve,

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soph: members' trust in your gym, you're gonna better… better people's retention, and if you're truly looking after your members and promoting their health on a holistic level, you're going to maintain

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soph: a loyal membership, and a healthier membership, and a happier membership that wants to come back and wants to recommend that gym to other places. So, I think… I'm really hopeful that that is something that… that can be taken forward.

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Ela Law: Yeah, that's a really good point, actually, when you look at how many people take out a gym membership in January, and then don't go from March onwards. It's quite interesting, isn't it? There must be statistics on that. I was just thinking, when you were talking about

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Ela Law: just as something as simple as a poster, you know, people who go to the gym tend to go to the loo before they go home, or when they get there, and if there is a poster, every time you go in.

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Ela Law: it'll register on some level, even if subconsciously, initially. And the other thing that I was just thinking when you were talking was.

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Ela Law: I was gym shopping not very long ago, and I found the most wonderful place that feels very welcoming, and it's just perfect, but there were so many that I rejected on the grounds of what they called their classes.

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Ela Law: oh my god, I just… my husband said, why didn't you go there? That's a lot cheaper. And I said, because they call their class BURN! And, you know, it was all angry, it was all about calories, and it was all about losing weight and sweating it all out, and…

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Ela Law: And the way that it was described, and I thought, I cannot, I cannot set foot in that gym, doing what I do, knowing what I know, and, you know, being of pure conscience doing any of those classes.

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Ela Law: That's a big, big thing for me. You know, language is… I'm so passionate about using language that is supportive, inclusive, and not actually selling you something like that. So, I'm just wondering whether

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Ela Law: that could be a policy for even the big corporate gyms. All they need to do is change the names of the classes. That seems like such a trivial thing, but I think it could have a massive impact.

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soph: I don't know.

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Ela Law: what you think about that, but I just…

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soph: No, I…

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Ela Law: It popped into my head.

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soph: I fully agree, so I kind of have this idea of… I think kind of eating disorder informed is very much in its infancy, but I have this kind of vision of, like, an ED-informed standard, which is kind of like a set of measures that gyms kind of subscribe to, per se, and then they kind of get a…

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soph: ED-informed standard sticker, or whatever you want to call it. And that's… that's one of the things on… on my list, is…

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soph: Is to have those class names looked at and changed, and as you say, language is so important and so powerful.

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soph: just make them neutral, if nothing else. They don't need to be all singing, all dancing, and, you know, posters or whatever that say, what is it, sweat is fat crying, or, like…

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soph: what is that? Like, no, take it down. Things like that. And they're so easy to change, and they cost nothing. Absolutely. But…

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soph: The impact that could have is huge, really, really huge.

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Ela Law: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: Sorry, I… my cat was on the neighbor's roof, so sorry about that.

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Ela Law: Oh my goodness.

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Christine Chessman: little kitten so far.

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Ela Law: Have you got a die absence?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, we're working on it, so I'm very sorry.

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Ela Law: else is dealing with it. Oh, okay. Gosh.

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soph: Bless you.

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Ela Law: Hope she comes back down.

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Christine Chessman: So, I'm very sorry for that.

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Ela Law: Oh, don't worry, don't worry.

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Ela Law: must.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, well, I was gonna ask about the…

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Christine Chessman: In terms of policy, so you're…

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Christine Chessman: as PTs, when the PTs train to be a personal trainer, there's certain nutrition… you know, you get very basic introduction to nutrition principles. Would you want the policies… would you want there to be, then, a section on

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Christine Chessman: Like, built into the personal training qualification, or is that something…

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soph: On nutrition specifically, do you mean?

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Christine Chessman: So, on ED, so on recognizing eating disorders.

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soph: Yeah, so I… I'm not super familiar with the training that's already in place for, kind of, PTs,

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soph: But I… I don't know if maybe built into it, or as a separate… as a separate training that's additionally required, I'd love to see that put in place, for sure.

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Christine Chessman: I just think that would be… because the nutrition… the education you get in nutrition is very calorie-focused and BMI-focused, and I think it would just be so important to actually counterbalance that with

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Christine Chessman: Here's how you recognize disordered behaviors in a gym setting, and I don't know, I just.

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Ela Law: You could probably scrap that nutrition bid altogether, or change it as well.

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soph: That's what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah.

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Ela Law: Yeah, stay safe.

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soph: in your lane! Yeah.

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Ela Law: But it's… yeah, I think that's a really good point, to… to have that integrated into…

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Ela Law: the training that everyone who wants to become a PT takes, that would be a massive thing, wouldn't it? And then changing the environment when you are in one of those places, like a gym or somewhere where you exercise, that would be…

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Ela Law: The follow-on from, you know, you have the staff trained, then you have all of the resources in place.

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Ela Law: And I think this, as you said earlier, Sophie, you can't… if someone's determined to…

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Ela Law: You know, to lose weight, or is in the full throes of an eating disorder.

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Ela Law: You can't get them all, but what you can do is you can create a supportive environment in which it's less…

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Ela Law: likely to thrive, that eating disorder, but you can't prevent it, but you might be able to…

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Ela Law: you know, to normalize a different narrative, a narrative that isn't focused on weight loss, on calories, on burning, on all of that. And I think… I think that would… that's a really good strategy, isn't it? To normalize

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Ela Law: the more positive and supportive kind of language, rather than to normalize this, or, you know, you've got a…

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Ela Law: You know, punish yourself to achieve something.

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soph: Yeah, 100%. You can't…

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soph: Of course, you're not going to stop everyone in the world getting eat, sort of, by doing this, but you can prevent deterioration, and you can…

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soph: be a huge part of early intervention, and we all know that the earlier that someone gets support, the more likely they are to recover, and the quicker they are to recover, and this is such an overlooked space to start doing that.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Sophie, how is your relationship now with the gym and with exercise? And you said you're kind of getting back into swimming, and how do you… do you feel now? Is there still work to do? Are you… is it kind of an ongoing thing?

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soph: I… so I never… I got… I think I got gym membership for, like.

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soph: two months, when I was quite early.

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soph: on in recovery, and I felt like, yeah, let's do this, I want to get more muscly, and whatever.

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soph: And, quite honestly, I hated it. I didn't want to go, and the only thing that was making me feel like I wanted to go is that little voice in my head, like, oh, but you should get big and strong, and everyone on social media is in the gym, and blah blah blah. And I just thought, you know what? This is not for me. I've never been in the gym, it's never been for me. I've been a swimmer, I love the water.

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soph: Boss…

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soph: That's about it. I went to the gym when I was swimming as part of our training, but it was for swimming, it wasn't for the gym.

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soph: So I'm not part of a gym, and I do sometimes get that little voice in my head when I see people getting big and strong and posting all their tone pictures on Instagram, and I think, oh, should I do that? But, I'm really grateful that I've kind of been able to kind of hold strong in that, and the gym is not for me.

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soph: Running equally is not for me. Really inspiring seeing people run marathons, but quite frankly, it looks horrendous, so… not for me.

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soph: But swimming, yes, I've always loved swimming, and I always did want to make it my mission to get back in the pool when I truly felt like I was able to do it for the right reasons, because swimming, for me, never became

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soph: really disordered, and I didn't want to ruin that. So I was very mindful about when I made my return to the pool, and how I did that. So, yeah, I now swim once or twice a week, and just for an hour, and with a master's team, and…

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soph: I will always be the voice in the pool pushing for us to go on slower intervals, because I'm like, I'm just here for fun!

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Ela Law: So…

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soph: it's… I'm really grateful that I've been able to do that, and I think,

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soph: maintaining that joy of movement and moving for the right reasons is such a lovely thing to hold onto in this day and age, although I will admit it is really tough, and I do sometimes have those thoughts, and maybe sometimes I think, oh, should I swim tonight? And I really have to check in with myself and be like, do I really want to go right now? No.

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soph: then I'm not going to go, because I know that the only reason I would go is for a disordered reason, and I don't want to allow myself to fall down that path, but I think if you have those kind of environmental and cultural safeguards in place, it makes it so much easier to make those truly healthy decisions. So that's what I want to kind of see happen.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know, this year, I'm turning 50, aren't you are too?

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Ela Law: Yeah, same.

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soph: It's no way you're both…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, of course.

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Ela Law: Oh, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So freaking sorry. And I thought, I'm gonna do a marathon, because I've already done four marathons, which…

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Christine Chessman: Honestly, that way.

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Ela Law: Show us.

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Christine Chessman: Started here and went all the way down, so my last one, I cried for the last 10 months.

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Christine Chessman: And somebody's like, oh, wasn't that amazing? And I went, it was the worst thing. And this year, I thought, no, I'll go, because I'm, you know, I'll do another marathon, and it'll be great. And then I went, I actually don't have to. I could just have a party. I don't actually…

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Christine Chessman: Don't actually need to run a marathon, there's nobody saying you need to run a marathon. And it was just to challenge my thinking and go, actually.

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Christine Chessman: You don't need to do that, you could actually just… enjoy.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And it was just this, like, actually, we can make those decisions, it's hard. And you've got the other voices there, but you can actually go, no, no, I can make my life a bit easier.

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Ela Law: I'm not trained for a marathon.

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soph: I'm not transfer mark.

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Ela Law: This is another thing, I think, that has been normalized, is these big things that, oh, someone's trekking up a ridiculously tall mountain, or we have to run a marathon, or no, we need to do an Ironman, or no, we need to… it's like…

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Ela Law: Why?

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Christine Chessman: I know.

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Ela Law: I have never… I think part of me would say it would be nice to have done it.

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Christine Chessman: There is nothing in me, nothing that would want me to train for a marathon and schlep through fucking London for 26 miles. Absolutely nothing.

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Christine Chessman: This is why I'm interested in your take on it, Sophie, because there is something of an athlete in me, in terms of I like to train for something, and to perform, and all of that.

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Christine Chessman: And it's hard to then separate. This is Ella, I've always talked to you about, it's hard for me to separate, do I want to run a marathon, or am I just…

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Christine Chessman: punishing myself by running lots of miles and doing lots of training, and it is… is that just because I quite like the thrill of training and performing and, you know, seeing what my body can do, or is that disordered? It is always… I'm always not quite sure.

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Ela Law: That's a really fine line, though, isn't it?

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Christine Chessman: What do you… how do you… do you just talk to yourself? Do you… how do you know?

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soph: Yeah, it's really tough, because obviously, you know, when I was training 21 hours a week for 15 years, I didn't always want to go, of course I didn't.

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soph: And I didn't really have a choice in it, in all honesty, but it wasn't… it wasn't coming from a disordered place in that I had a really healthy relationship with food, and whether or not I swam that day, I would probably still have eaten 3 donuts for breakfast and not really cared. And I think it's only after you've

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soph: You've become aware that you've had a problem or a struggle with food and exercise that suddenly

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soph: easing that apart becomes so much more difficult, and again, in this culture we're in, it becomes really difficult because everybody's doing it, and it feels like the right thing to do, or a good thing to do, or an inspiring thing to do.

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soph: I… I guess for me, I've kind of accepted that I've exited my elite athlete career, and so anything I do from here, I want to do solely for fun.

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soph: And I think that's tricky, because if you're still in a space where you want to challenge yourself and compete, and I'm a competitive person, and sometimes I get competitive in the pool, but I think I always come back to, am I enjoying myself? Am I enjoying this? And am I going to…

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soph: be changing behaviours outside of this exercise space? Am I going to be changing food behaviors based on what I have or haven't done today? Or any… are there any thoughts around whether I'd quite like to change some of those food behaviors? And just really trying to tap into

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soph: is this something I really want to do? Am I really enjoying it? What would I tell someone else who feels how I feel right now?

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soph: But about whether they should or shouldn't do this thing that I'm thinking about. I think sometimes when I'm really on the fence about if I want to go for a swim in the evening, and it's cold, and it's miserable, and I'm really exhausted, and if someone else came to me and said that's how they feel, I'd be like, well, don't go! And I think if that would be my advice, I'm like, well, then why am I forcing myself out the door? Because…

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soph: there's no need for me to do that right now, and if I'm not enjoying it, and it's possibly going to, you know, have a ripple effect on what I do or don't eat, or am I only going because I want to eat something more, then I know that that's the wrong decision for me, and it is really tricky to tease out, and I think it takes practice and consistency and a sustained period of being able to abstain from exercise and be totally okay with it.

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soph: But it is really tough, really, really, really tough, so I can…

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soph: Really understand the struggle that comes with that.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law: Yeah, I think that's… I think that that's something that is very, very individual, isn't it?

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soph: Because…

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Ela Law: there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to achieve, or to push yourself a little bit, or to… to see, you know, how far can I… how far can I go, how heavy can I lift?

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Ela Law: Inherently, there's nothing wrong with it, but if it…

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Ela Law: tips over into, as you said, Sophie, into, am I compensating somewhere else? Am I changing how I eat? Am I changing my social interactions? Am I

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Ela Law: cancelling meetups with friends, because I feel like I have to train… that's when it becomes disordered, so it's… it's very important what you said is about asking yourself those questions.

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Ela Law: Every time.

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soph: Yeah, yeah, and looking at that full picture, and how would I feel if I couldn't go? Would that cause me a lot of anxiety? Or, what if I was injured? Would I feel like I still wanted to go? Or, you know, do I…

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soph: am I eating out tomorrow? Is that why I want to go? Like, it's just really looking at that wider picture and thinking, what else is going on right now? Is this something else I'm feeling that I'm kind of projecting onto my body and wanting to do something? Or is this coming out of a place of, yeah.

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soph: I think I want to go, and I'm fueling myself, and I'm enjoying kind of a balance, and, like, that's fine. It's hard, it's hard to get there, really hard.

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Ela Law: Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: That's… it's really helpful, what you've said, because that's… it's so true, there's often something else going on, and we just kind of go, oh, this is our… you know, my stress response is.

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Christine Chessman: immediately hone in, and then I can push it away, but I think for a lot of people, that's the case. They kind of turn in on… and try and unpick what's wrong with themselves, rather than going, actually, there's a big issue that I'm not wanting to deal with, and this is… and I think that's really important, what you said about asking yourself these questions. I'm going to use them myself.

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Christine Chessman: So thank you very much, Sophie.

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soph: You're welcome! I was just gonna say, I think it's kind of where that psychological part of an eating disorder gets neglected, because you…

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soph: You forget that it's… it's not actually about the food, it's not actually about the body, it's about those… those internal thought processes and beliefs about yourself, and that's where the work starts, and that's what we need to…

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soph: We need to get people to understand that that's… that's what the problem is. It's not… it's not your body, it's not your food, it's not your exercise, it's your relationship with those things, your relationship with yourself, and how you are doing as a person.

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Christine Chessman: Sophie, unfortunately, we have to end here.

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soph: Just kidding.

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Christine Chessman: I could easily… we could easily chat to you for hours long, shouldn't we? Oh, gosh, yeah. There's so much more ground to cover.

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Ela Law: Yeah, we can have you back once things are progressing.

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Christine Chessman: One way.

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Ela Law: Edie informed, and.

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soph: I love that.

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Ela Law: update.

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soph: Yeah, thank you. That'd be great.

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Christine Chessman: But in the meantime, what can we do to help support you in this?

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soph: It's so kind.

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soph: That's so kind. I think…

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soph: as I said, I do kind of see this very much in its infancy, so still trying to kind of build a community, put this on people's radars, looking for opportunities like this to talk about it, and have these conversations, and any spaces or people that are kind of willing to pilot some ideas, like, I would… I would so love that. I do have a website and a social media page, and I'm running a few little things. I've got a survey going on at the moment, which I probably should

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soph: start promoting a bit more heavily. Kind of looking at people's relationship with a gym and what they think, gyms could do better to feel like more supportive spaces.

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soph: There's a petition that I am pushing for eating disorders to be recognised in UK health policy, and then I'm fundraising, which is for this training that I'm working on developing with BEAT, so I've partnered with BEAT and

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soph: They are working behind the scenes tirelessly to develop a training specifically for fitness professionals.

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soph: which I'm trying to fundraise as much as possible to… to cover development costs for that, so that's ongoing as well. So those are some ways to support, and I'd be so grateful. And thank you so, so much for having me today. It's been so lovely to talk.

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Ela Law: Oh, it's been so interesting, and we will share all of the links in our show notes, so anyone listening…

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soph: Thank you.

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Ela Law: watching can just click on the links. I've just filled in the survey before we came on, and it's, it's really good. It's really interesting, because it makes you think, that survey, so I'd highly recommend anyone, who, who's

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Ela Law: got a couple of minutes to fill that in. But yeah, we'll share all of those links in the show notes, and hopefully people can then

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Ela Law: You know, check you out and share with people they know.

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Christine Chessman: Yes.

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soph: Thank you, Sam. Thanks so much.

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Christine Chessman: Thank you, Sophie, and we will be in touch, because I want you back on soon.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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soph: Oh, I would love that, I would love that.

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Ela Law: Thank you so much.

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soph: Thank you so much, thank you.