Menopause Myths - Nutrib*llocks and Fitness BS

We were not holding back.. It’s fair to say that both of us are super grateful to all the trailblazers that put perimenopause and menopause on the list of topics that we can now all pretty openly discuss. We are both heading towards 50, and are both supporting clients who are going through hormonal changes in midlife. 

Whilst we see that there is a place for tailored perimenopause and menopause support, we also feel that, yet again, vulnerability is exploited through monetisation – supplements, potions and lotions are being flogged alongside promises to get rid of the ‘meno-belly’ (we SO hate that word!!) and specific diet plans to regulate hormones (hint: it doesn't work like that)

In particular with regard to supplements, we should be a bit cautious: for many of them we don’t have scientific evidence of their effectiveness, and whilst marketing uses anecdotal benefits to make a sale, we should really know what effects (and side effects) these supplements might have longer term before believing the claims unquestioningly - i.e. making an informed decision based on actual scientific evidence might be a good idea!

We are not judging anyone who tries things out  – but we want to invite you to make informed decisions and keep an open mind to the fact that when someone is selling you a solution that's too good to be true, it may not be all they promise it to be.  

Our advice is not very sexy, because it isn’t menopause specific: move your body in a way that feels good to you, eat foods that feel good in your body. Look at who gives you the advice: are they trained in the field they say they are an expert in or are they using the classic influencer strategy of n=1 (meaning they base their advice on their own experience only)? Are they selling you something or are they sharing their advice based on scientific evidence?

We’d love to hear from you about your own experience with perimenopause and menopause and what worked/didn’t work for you, maybe you spent lots of money on stuff or you found things that didn’t cost you a penny that helped. 

 And share this episode with anyone you think might find it helpful!

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: Hello, Ella, how are you?

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Ela Law (she/her): Hi there, Christine, I'm very well, how are you?

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Christine Chessman: This is the first January, we're back, isn't it not the first January we're back? That's bad use of English.

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Ela Law (she/her): You're talking to a German, I wouldn't have noticed.

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Christine Chessman: This is the first session we're back, the first podcast we're back after Christmas, apart, like, solo, together, you and me. Yes, obviously, we had the amazing Sophie from BD Informed last week. That episode's doing brilliantly, so…

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Ela Law (she/her): Such a good conversation.

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Christine Chessman: go back and listen to it. How is January treating you?

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Ela Law (she/her): So far so good. I'm counting the days. Usually, I find January drags a bit, just like September. There's something about those two months that they seem to be going on for bloody ever, but, yeah, so far, so good. I'm getting back in the swing of things, I've just… I was just saying off-mic, I was…

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Ela Law (she/her): Just, finished my, somatic trauma integration course, which I absolutely adored. I really enjoy going to my gym, which has a sauna, which is beautiful in this shitty weather.

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Ela Law (she/her): to go in, and a plunge pool, so it… I just, yeah, just enjoying it. Yeah, so far so good. How about you?

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Christine Chessman: That's exciting, and are you noticing you're bringing in any techniques, like somatic techniques when you're feeling stressed, or when you're feeling.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yes, yeah, and it's becoming a little bit more automatic, which I find very interesting, because I used to not… I used to be one of those stereotypicals, you know, from the head up.

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Ela Law (she/her): my body, I have no idea what's going on, and through my work, and intuitive eating, obviously, and now this course,

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Ela Law (she/her): I notice a lot more, and I notice that, you know, grounding, breathwork, all of those very simple things and very simple techniques make such a massive difference to my mental health, as well as my physical health. So yeah, I'm all over it at the moment.

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Christine Chessman: I mean, I'm buying into all of that. I'm sort of very… even, like, hand on the chest. Oh, yeah. That, to me, is just, like, just take a second and remind myself to sort of take a deep breath. Stephanie Michelle basically saved me on a flight. Did I already talk about this? She has an episode on flight anxiety.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, God.

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Christine Chessman: She's obviously a somatic experiencing practitioner, and it was all about what to do if you're in mid-turbulence and you're terrified.

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Ela Law (she/her): Wow.

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Christine Chessman: It was just amazing. I mean, it didn't take the anxiety away, but I dealt with it a lot better and a lot more calmly.

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Ela Law (she/her): I think this is what it's about. It's not about, oh, we need to, like, fix it and not be anxious anymore. It's about how do we deal with it, and, you know, what do we do in the moment?

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely.

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Ela Law (she/her): Love it.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, and I've just finished my inclusive kettlebell course with Demali Fraser, so that

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Christine Chessman: 6 months of kettlebell training. Wow. And it was like no other kettlebell training, because she is an inclusive coach and a Jedi Fit Pro, so it's all about justice, equality, or equity.

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Christine Chessman: And diversity and inclusion, so that's the kind of stuff that I really stand for, and I don't want to just pay lip service to, so it was a fantastic course, so check it out if you're a FitPro and want to…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah. And you will be able to use all of that with your clients, I assume?

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Christine Chessman: 100%. 100%. And she's also an amazing kettlebell coach, so… Yeah. But anyway, we're not here to talk about those things. We're here to talk about the menopause.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yay!

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Christine Chessman: Neither of us are in yet. Of course not. But we are in… well, we're not yet.

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Ela Law (she/her): We're not in the menopause, we're in the perimenopause. We're both 50 this year, aren't we? May I say that? So we're right in the… bang in the middle of it.

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Christine Chessman: I know. 50. Yeah, I'm getting used to it. It's great! I'm getting used to it, it's alright.

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Ela Law (she/her): How lucky are we that we made it to almost 50?

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Christine Chessman: I know, but isn't it the weirdest thing that people, when we were young, used to go, oh, you don't feel like 50 on the inside? And it's true, you're like.

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Ela Law (she/her): It's so true.

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Christine Chessman: Why am I? 50? What the hell?

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Christine Chessman: Fact.

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Ela Law (she/her): I know, I know.

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Christine Chessman: I thought it'd be wise and, like, feel, like, all together and… but not hot. But yeah, so menopause, we… you're getting quite annoyed by Nutribullocks, menopause nutribolocks, and obviously we're…

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Christine Chessman: I'm getting quite annoyed with the fitness industry in general for lots of things, but especially they're jumping on the bandwagon and trying to sell everybody menopause fitness programs!

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Christine Chessman: Hmm.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: You know, as opposed to just…

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Ela Law (she/her): A fitness program.

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Christine Chessman: programs, yeah.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, exactly.

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Christine Chessman: So what… what are you… what is your bugbear, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, there's lots of bugbears. I think… I just want to preface this by saying that I am so, so glad that

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Ela Law (she/her): perimenopause, menopause are topics that people talk about now, that it's out there, that even men are actually noticing, oh, there's something going on there, thank you for letting us know. And I think it's brilliant. All the trailblazers that put it in the public eye, thank you, thank you, thank you, I think it's fantastic. I think what I struggle with

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Ela Law (she/her): is the instant monetization of the topic. And I am not talking about people like the menopause dietitian or nutritionist Jen, who actually legitimately use evidence-based support and advice to, you know.

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Ela Law (she/her): Talk to people, and support.

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Ela Law (she/her): people through this period of time, of their lives, but I'm talking about the people that come up with all sorts of bullshit and sell you potions and lotions and programs and courses.

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Ela Law (she/her): to basically… Tell you why you can fix this.

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Ela Law (she/her): with whatever it is. So, I'm thinking about all of the supplements. I'm thinking about very specific, as you said, fitness programs for the menopause, which is really just a fitness program. It's diet plans for menopause, where it's really just

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Ela Law (she/her): a diet plan. It's all this kind of, putting the menopause stamp on it to basically pry on people who feel quite vulnerable, and feel like, oh, my body's changing, shit, what am I gonna do? And therefore, are more likely to actually buy into those things. That's the kind of thing that… does that make sense? That's the kind of thing that I'm frustrated with.

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Christine Chessman: And it is, so Jen Huber, Dr. Jen Hooper actually says this about menopause, is there's two peaks of body dissatisfaction, that is puberty, and that is perimenopause, and so that's when we're feeling really quite vulnerable, and we're more likely to jump if somebody says, oh, do you want to feel great and lose all your meno belly, in inverted commas, which, oh, don't get me started on that.

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Christine Chessman: And whereas, you know, and that's why I really like Jen's approach, if we're talking about somebody who really is specifically menopause.

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Christine Chessman: Because she experienced an early menopause and really struggled, and is using her expertise to help people

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Christine Chessman: through non-restriction, no dieting, to try and accept their bodies and get through menopause a little bit easier. That's… and that I respect, and I'm all for.

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Christine Chessman: But anybody that kind of goes, oh, if you want to lose your mental belly, here are 5 exercises that you need to add to… and the whole weight of vest all the time, and the whole eat less, move more.

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Ela Law (she/her): Just keep moving.

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Christine Chessman: I mean, Davina McCall, as much as everybody loves her, is, you know, she is all about… I listened to an interview with her, and she's just like, just keep moving. So in menopause, you've just got to keep moving, or you'll put weight on. You just can't really sit down very much, and you can't… and I'm like, what the heck are we telling women?

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Christine Chessman: I know, I know. You're going through this really tough time, where there's so many changes going on, biologically, physiologically, and every way. And, you know, you might have elderly parents, you might have who are ill, who need looking after, you may have teenage children who are going through their own stuff.

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Christine Chessman: Which, you know, which is very normal and common. And you're sandwiched in this where you're losing your sense of self, you're feeling your hot flushes all the time, you don't know what's…

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Christine Chessman: You know, we need support. We need people that are gonna be…

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Christine Chessman: Authentic and genuine, and actually out for…

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Christine Chessman: Helping you feel better, not just…

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Christine Chessman: you know, get thinner, get smaller, shrink your body. That's not what we're looking for at this stage in our life, you know.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, exactly that. I think it all sort of leads back to diet culture, doesn't it? It leads back to… I think a lot of it has something to do with…

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Ela Law (she/her): the fix-it mentality, you've got a problem, I've got the solution to fix it.

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Ela Law (she/her): There's not a lot of focus on accepting that this can be a very challenging phase in life for

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Ela Law (she/her): Some women, it's not… not everyone suffers, some sail through it.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, that's…

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Ela Law (she/her): Some people have very debilitating anxiety, hot flushes, all sorts of physical symptoms. There's all sorts of… it's a massive spectrum of

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Ela Law (she/her): how people experience perimenopause and menopause, right? And I disagree with this, oh, we can fix this, if only you took X, Y, and Z supplement, or did

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Ela Law (she/her): that particular training, or MOOC kept moving. I think…

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Ela Law (she/her): Accepting that, yes, it can be shit for a while, and accepting that your body changes.

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Ela Law (she/her): I don't hear that narrative very often. Do you?

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Christine Chessman: No. No, and I tend to only follow people that do.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: promote that narrative. Yeah. Or that, kind of, you know, because it's… this is not the time to be trying to lose that £10.

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Ela Law (she/her): Whoa!

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Christine Chessman: That… because your body is changing for a reason.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And it's absolutely fine to pursue health, and to get fit and get strong to support yourself through this time.

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Ela Law (she/her): Do you know what I mean? Rather than… Absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: And there's certain ways of training which probably are more beneficial in terms of, kind of, bone health, all of that, that we can absolutely do at this time in life, but strength training is strength. You know what I mean? If you come to me and you're not perimenopausal, but want to build strength, I'll be working with you in very much the same way. Yeah. So it's not…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: it's, you know, I'm not kind of charging extra for menopause, but it's just, you know.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, or you're menopausal, you can pay my extra special VIP route. So that's not how I work. I kind of want to tailor it to… but just building strength is something from our 30s, early 30s is important for us in terms of bone health, so that's not…

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Christine Chessman: specific to menopause, and I think all… women just feel stressed no matter which way they turn. You know, they should be doing anti-aging. There's… it's a capitalist society, so anti-aging, they should be doing strength training, but not too much, because they don't want to get bulky, they still want to maintain that really slim

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Christine Chessman: Extreme, thin ideal that we're all being bombarded with at the minute.

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Christine Chessman: It's kind of like a no-win, so if you see somebody going, here's a 10-week program that will… or here's a mushroom, as you're saying.

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Christine Chessman: I think people… you don't… there's no judgment here. You can understand why people go for it.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think that that's the thing that everyone has to decide for themselves. It is a very individual thing, and I can totally see how those mushroom gummies might actually work for some people, be that the placebo effect, or be that something in there agrees with their body.

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Ela Law (she/her): go for it, fine, do it, but what I disagree with is that

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Ela Law (she/her): there is this kind of notion that we all have to do it, and as you just said, it's, again, it's taking time and energy away from what else is going on in life, because we're so focused on, oh, we have to stay in that smaller body that we used to have when we were 26, but you are…

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Ela Law (she/her): In your late 40s, early 50s, your body is different.

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Ela Law (she/her): I would rather people work on accepting that fact, and actually understanding that that's for a reason, you know, you're actually adding fat to your body, because that's where estrogen is produced, so your body's like, alright, okay, I'll put a few extra fat cells in there so we can hold onto that shit for a bit longer. Yeah. You know, but that doesn't really get talked about. You have the Davina McCalls jumping up and down and saying, oh.

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Ela Law (she/her): do this, and then you get a six-pack, which I think is not very supportive of women. I know that there is good intention to help people and support people, but I feel like, again, it's…

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Ela Law (she/her): It's just going against… the natural kind of change that we are all going through, does that make sense?

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Christine Chessman: Absolutely, and I would say Davina did bring up the HRT topic of conversation.

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Ela Law (she/her): That's what I thought.

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Christine Chessman: That was great.

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Ela Law (she/her): Good on her.

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Christine Chessman: Very important, maybe a bit.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: I think we went… You know, the pendulum swung.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: massively towards HRT, which I think it will find its, kind of.

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Christine Chessman: You know, whatever works for you eventually.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: Rather than, I must do this, or I must… But yeah, so she… I'm not trying to… obviously, she's done a lot of good, but I disagree with the…

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Christine Chessman: you trying to look a certain way when your body is really going, please, let me do what I am here to do. Yeah. I, you know, I literally function. You need… our organs need to function a certain way, and we…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: you know, we are not, as you say, you're not 20. No. You've probably… you know, if you've had kids as well, you're… you're simply… your body is different, and that… why should we look like

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Christine Chessman: we're not 50, why should we look like we haven't had kids, or that we're not… you know, it's the biggest compliment you can offer somebody saying, you don't look your age, you don't look like you've had kids, and I find that really sad. Recently, I've just… it started to really strike me.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, you wouldn't know you'd had kids, and that's kind of sad. Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: But that'.

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Ela Law (she/her): My body grew them, so… Yeah, exactly, like, I look like I did…

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Christine Chessman: But exactly, why is that such a bad thing? It's this friggin'… we always have to conform, and…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Look like we're not aging, look like we're not…

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Christine Chessman: you know, getting any heavier. Looked like a world… why?

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Ela Law (she/her): Why? For who?

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. Who's it for, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): I don't know, but I just listened to a podcast that I loved with… I mean, we both are massive fans of Dan Harris.

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Christine Chessman: Yes.

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Ela Law (she/her): And he interviewed a, a doctor, what's she called? Kerry?

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Ela Law (she/her): Burnite, Burnite, or something like that, and she was talking about all of the narrative around aging, and I loved the reframe that she gave, which was, instead of

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Ela Law (she/her): focusing on staying young, and doing all of the things that we're told we need to do, like the fillers, the injections, the lips, the whatever, the workouts, the diets, whatever we are told to do. We should stay focused on staying well.

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Ela Law (she/her): And whatever that entails, that doesn't just include, you know, be looking young, it's about feeling well, and whatever you can do to maybe sleep better, eat

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Ela Law (she/her): a little bit more nutritious food. Move a little bit more. Find connections that, you know, fill you up. Find a purpose.

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Ela Law (she/her): Give. All of those things are so, so important, and learn new things.

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Ela Law (she/her): that way, you have a longer… she called it joy span instead of lifespan, and I love that, because you can turn 98 and have a fucking miserable existence, because you're, you know.

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Ela Law (she/her): don't like what you're doing, you hate life, or you can find all of those things that bring you joy, and age…

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Ela Law (she/her): kind of doesn't really matter so much, because you are finding joy in life, and, you know, you can have a longer joy span. I love that, kind of idea of focusing on that.

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Christine Chessman: And it's… I mean, I'm all for that narrative, and I'm… I love the strong narrative as well, in terms of… I like my body to feel strong.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm.

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Christine Chessman: and resilient, unable to… so that when I'm aging, I'm still able to be as independent as I can.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And the idea of being fragile and shrinking myself to fit is not… do you know what I mean? That really puts me off now.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: To the point, if I ever do, through no trying, lose weight, I kind of go, oh, I don't like that.

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Ela Law (she/her): No. No worries.

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Christine Chessman: I don't… I want to make sure that I'm… my organs are getting everything they need, that I am… my body is really functioning well, and that I'm giving it everything it needs to support it.

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Ela Law (she/her): And that's easy to say when you're in a straight-sized body and you're, you know, white females, but yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Do you know what I mean? It's… it is definitely a privileged conversation, but…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I do think that is… what are you gonna say? You know, what is your legacy? Oh, great, you looked…

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Ela Law (she/her): She looked 10 years younger when she died, great.

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Christine Chessman: your face looked 10 years younger, but it doesn't really… I mean, this is…

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Christine Chessman: You look… so anybody who's had work done, for whatever reason, I never judge, because who knows?

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Christine Chessman: Bear with me, sorry, somebody's trying to call me.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh.

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Christine Chessman: Can't find you, there you go. Excuse me, you know, that's just what happens on my laptop.

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Christine Chessman: What was I trying to say, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): You weren't judging people who have things done to their faces, but…

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Christine Chessman: If… if you have Botox, Generally, you look like you've had Botox.

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Christine Chessman: So you might look really fresh first, and your face doesn't move, but you look…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: My whole face for a 49-year-old woman is gonna move.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah. And that's because you've lived, and you've smiled, and you've… Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And that's beautiful.

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Ela Law (she/her): Exactly.

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Christine Chessman: You know, and I think… I think you've got to make your own decisions, and there's no… there really is no judgment, because the freaking society we live in, I understand why you would, completely.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Or… but I'm just trying to…

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Christine Chessman: to go the other way, and see… I'm not… I'm not gonna say I'll be forever on that way, but my plan is to be forever on that way. Yeah.

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Ela Law (she/her): But I think your focus is healthy in the sense that

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Ela Law (she/her): It's, for you, it's… it's about…

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Ela Law (she/her): building strength to support your body as it is aging, so that you are mobile for longer, that you can do things for longer, and therefore enjoy things for longer, because if you… if you don't have that, if you don't sort of go into that now, when you're 70, you might feel like, oh, I can't actually go on that walk, because that… I'm out of breath if I walk up

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Ela Law (she/her): the road, or I can't climb those stairs, because, you know, my muscles won't support that. And likewise, with, in terms of nutrition, I think

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Ela Law (she/her): Of course, look at what you're eating, and how that supports your well-being, but not in the sense of, oh, I need to lose weight, but in a what feels good, and what makes me energized, what does my body need, how often do I need to eat, you know, feeding it in a sense of.

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Ela Law (she/her): I want it to be well, so that I can live well and stay well for longer, rather than I need to eat or not eat so that I'm smaller and possibly look younger.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, so, so exactly that. So most people… not most people, that's completely ridiculous, but people here are struggling with

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Christine Chessman: With their body image, are sort of aiding, probably, to…

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Christine Chessman: weigh how their bodies look, rather than feel. It is the look versus feel, isn't it? And this is the similar thing with the somatic experiencing. It is about how do you actually feel? Sitting in the chair, how does it feel with your feet on the floor?

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Christine Chessman: Can you rearrange your position so you feel a bit more comfortable? Rather than, oh, I look horrible. You know, it's always that outside in, rather than inside out. It's kind of, how am I actually feeling, if I take a second and close my eyes and…

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Christine Chessman: And, yeah, that's… but that's a very hard thing to…

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Christine Chessman: Retrain your body or your brain.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mmm, yeah, it takes practice, for sure.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah.

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Ela Law (she/her): For sure, but it starts with a slight shift in focus, and in starting to notice and becoming a little bit more aware of, you know, what are we actually subscribing to here? What is the thing that we

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Ela Law (she/her): what is our why? What is our objective? And if your objective is, I want to look as young as possible for however long I can.

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Ela Law (she/her): I'm not judging that, but I'm thinking, for whom is it? It's not for you, is it for whoever's looking at you? Do you need that external validation?

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Ela Law (she/her): who is it for? And as you said, you know, that's… I think that's the question we need to ask ourselves. Is it for ourselves? Do we… you know, is that what we get most joy out of, if people think that we're 10 years younger than we are?

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Ela Law (she/her): You know, if that is you, fine, go for it, but…

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Ela Law (she/her): majority of people, it probably isn't. The majority of people probably do want to feel well for as long as possible, and not be ill, and not be immobile, and…

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Christine Chessman: And I tell you what helps you appear young is being able to move. Being able to, you know, for those that can, to be able to actually move in a way, do you know what I mean? Be able to get onto the floor, to be able to get back up again, and that.

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Ela Law (she/her): 100%.

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Christine Chessman: Makes you feel younger.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Because it's… do you know what I mean? Totally. I have a number of clients that come to me, and they might be in their 40s only, which to me now is very young.

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Christine Chessman: And they might be going, oh, well, I'm old now, so… and I'm like, I do not subscribe to that narrative. I want to be doing the stuff that I want to do for as long as absolutely physically possible. I want to be Dick Van Dyke, I don't want to be… you know what I mean? Yeah. I want to be, like, in defiance, defiantly lifting weights when I'm 90, rather than…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Not being able to get up, and I… and that's my particular goal, but I did want to come back to you on nutrition and supplements, because I use supplements.

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Christine Chessman: I use magnesium every night, so use tick. What's the difference? Don't know. I also have vitamin D, which, because we live in England, and that's pretty much all that I tick.

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Christine Chessman: Great. And… but I also use, so, things like flaxseed, I use lots of seeds and nuts and mixture. I've got all the berries and all the…

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Christine Chessman: Which, in my mind, helps me feel like, I'm getting the nutrients I need. Is it okay? It's okay to take supplements, isn't it?

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, god, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So, what is your point making that people are selling you things which are supposed to be, like, change your balance your hormones, for example, which is… or for adrenal fatigue, which doesn't exist? Is that more what you're saying? Or detox your liver, or…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, exactly that. So, I think magnesium is great, especially if you struggle to sleep. It might help you to relax your nervous system and your muscles. It's brilliant. You can have it as a spray, as a gel, take it orally, whatever. Vitamin D, everyone should be taking in the northern hemisphere between October and April, definitely. 10 micrograms a day, minimum, definitely.

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Ela Law (she/her): So I'm all for that. I'm also not against the multivitamin, especially, you know, when our diet might be a little bit up and down, and we don't really get the nutrients.

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Ela Law (she/her): that we should be getting, but yeah, anything like that is absolutely fine. I think the thing with a lot of supplements that are being sold, especially for menopause or perimenopause, is that they're not based on evidence.

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Ela Law (she/her): the evidence, and we haven't got long-term study, so I'm giving you an example, the ashwagandha. It's been used for thousands of years.

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Ela Law (she/her): But it's not been studied for very long.

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Ela Law (she/her): So we are now buying sachets, tablets, pills, potions, whatever, with ashwagandha in it, but what we don't know is whether it might have a long-term effect on, for example, our liver. There's now evidence showing that it can affect your liver in a negative way.

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Christine Chessman: Wow.

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Ela Law (she/her): We don't know, well, what is the dose that

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Ela Law (she/her): makes it potentially harmful. We don't know, is it interacting with something else we're taking to make it potentially less beneficial. It's helped loads of people relieve stress, sleep better.

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Ela Law (she/her): But we haven't got long-term studies on it.

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Ela Law (she/her): Mushrooms. Brilliant. I'm such a fan of the fungus on all levels.

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Christine Chessman: How are you?

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, I love, I love the, I love the whole,

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Ela Law (she/her): the cosmos of mushrooms in our world, and I think if we ever get, eradicated, the mushroom will be like, yeah, we're still around.

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Christine Chessman: I love them. Oh yeah, they're.

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Ela Law (she/her): to be building their networks and everything, but in terms of food supplements, again, they may well work for people, and they may well… I mean, it might be a placebo, but it might really have some beneficial therapeutic effect. But we haven't got long-term studies, so we're

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Ela Law (she/her): Popping those mushrooms and mushroom gummies left, right, and center, but what we don't know is what is the long-term effect of that on the rest of our body.

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Ela Law (she/her): So that is the thing that I'm slightly nervous about, because they may well turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread for a perimenopausal person.

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Ela Law (she/her): But…

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Ela Law (she/her): You know, what we're not hearing is, oh, if you take all of those things, there might be a bit of a danger to your liver, or your kidneys, or whatever part of your body. So I'm more for the evidence base.

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Ela Law (she/her): you know, vitamin D, as an example, there is evidence.

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Ela Law (she/her): that we don't get enough, our skin can't make it because the sun's too far away, we're probably not eating a diet rich in vitamin D, so, you know, makes complete sense to supplement on that. And if you have certain things going on.

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Ela Law (she/her): supplementing isn't an issue, but what we don't know is the dosage of all of these herbs and tinctures and… you know what I mean? So I think that's what I'm slightly nervous about.

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Christine Chessman: That's really informative and very interesting. I was recommended to tick by a friend, not a doctor.

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Christine Chessman: To take Lion's Mane, because it's supposed to be really good for menopause, in inverted commas. And I tell you what, I am very sensitive, Lil, so, I took an evening, woke up in the morning, got off the sofa, and was so dizzy, I collapsed on the floor.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, wow.

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Christine Chessman: cancel my entire day of clients, because I was so dizzy and not.

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Ela Law (she/her): Wow.

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Christine Chessman: And, obviously.

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Ela Law (she/her): And you think it was that?

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Christine Chessman: Oh, it was the only thing. Okay. It was vaguely different, that I'd taken… that it was the only thing, and I'd taken it just before bed, and that was, yeah, it was very… and it did say it could cause.

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Ela Law (she/her): Okay. You know, I did cause.

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Christine Chessman: But, you know, for other… so I'm saying they do have an impact, they are doing something.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah. For some people. Some people take them and nothing happens.

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Christine Chessman: But what I'm saying is you have to be a little bit careful, because they are doing something in your brain.

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Ela Law (she/her): Hmm.

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Christine Chessman: As in, as you're saying, until they're completely tested and verified and all of that, we have to be a little bit, sort of, more attentive, don't… would you say?

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. I think this… this is… this sort of goes into the broader thing of influencers coming up with all sorts of shit. I love, Michael Ulyoa's post of calling out all of that bullshit, where people say, oh, you have to stir your water to the left so that the enzymes

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Ela Law (she/her): There's all sorts of nonsense, and you just look at it, and you think.

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Ela Law (she/her): How can you say shit like that with such conviction?

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Ela Law (she/her): And put these things?

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Christine Chessman: So I've, I giggled, I giggled that light. I love Dr. Joshua Woolrich. Oh, yes.

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Christine Chessman: I just think he's fantastic. I love his wit, his dry wit, he's just brilliant. But he was like, oh, look, I just did my shopping, and I didn't take a video sounding and reading all of the nutritional content.

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Christine Chessman: You know, I managed to just do my shopping and then leave, and it was like… he's just got such a great approach to it. Food is food. Yeah. You know, it is not medicine, it is not… and you… you know, they might… products may have… so all food has got some sort of nutrition in it.

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Christine Chessman: Certain foods are more nutrient-dense than others, but no food is bad or good. No food is morally better than any other food, and I think that's really important, isn't it?

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Ela Law (she/her): Absolutely, but that is… you know, if you want to sell something, that's very unsexy advice, isn't it?

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Christine Chessman: It's…

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Ela Law (she/her): You know, what are you gonna make out of that? I mean, as you said right at the beginning, when you…

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Ela Law (she/her): when you do training with somebody, it looks pretty much the same, whether someone is perimenopausal, or whether someone's in their mid-20s. If they want to do strength training, they're going to get strength training based on

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Ela Law (she/her): what works for them. Yeah. And as a nutrition professional, I would say the exact same thing. I think my advice to someone going through perimenopause, in terms of nutrition, is

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Ela Law (she/her): just eat a varied, balanced diet of a bit of everything, and enjoy your food, which is… you can't sell that, that's like, mmm, okay, and what else? There is some evidence that maybe we can

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Ela Law (she/her): Add a little bit more protein to our diet, when we're at this age.

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Ela Law (she/her): always helps to add a bit more fruit and vegetables and fiber to your diet. But other than that, there isn't really any

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Ela Law (she/her): Any evidence that you need to completely change your diet?

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Christine Chessman: And also with the protein, I think that's been exaggerated beyond belief. Like, protein Mars bars now, protein yogurts.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh.

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Christine Chessman: Yogurts have protein.

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Ela Law (she/her): Again, it's making money, isn't it? You're buying a product where you don't need to buy that product.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. It's just not necessary.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah. So, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And I, you know, the other day, there was protein soya milk.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, God.

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Christine Chessman: And I was like, what the… what is going on? And it is… you see pro… you know, you're told you need more protein, so you see protein, and you think, oh, I better buy that. So it's great marketing, isn't it?

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Ela Law (she/her): But most of us actually get more protein than we need anyway, because there's protein in almost everything.

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Ela Law (she/her): I need to just… pause for a second. Is that okay? Can we pause?

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Christine Chessman: Yay, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So, do you think you get enough protein, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): I think I do, yes. I think… I think we all probably get… if we eat a very varied diet with a bit of everything, I think we do tend to get enough protein. I think some people who have exclusive… excluding, whatever diet, where they're sort of excluding certain food groups.

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Ela Law (she/her): they may want to have a look at it, vegetarians, vegans in particular, because the best, and I mean that in a most complete protein source, are

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Ela Law (she/her): Meat, fish, eggs… Foods that vegans, vegetarians might not eat.

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Christine Chessman: Mmm.

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Ela Law (she/her): they need to eat a bigger variety of protein foods, like tofu and pulses and beans and those kind of things. But on the whole, as a nation, as a society, there is evidence that we probably eat slightly more than we need. So therefore.

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Ela Law (she/her): we, as perimenopausal women, we're probably close to what is recommended for us. So the recommendation for,

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Ela Law (she/her): I'm just gonna use women here, is to have, I think it's 45… roughly 45 grams a day of protein.

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Christine Chessman: Okay.

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Ela Law (she/her): there is some evidence that it should be slightly more than that, but it's very easy to get that, and I think Jen Huber says on her website, probably about a gram.

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Ela Law (she/her): Per body weight per day, 1 to 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight is probably a good…

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Christine Chessman: And for those that don't know their body weight, like myself, then 45 kilos is probably… or 45 kilos. 45 grams is probably.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: And what about creatine? Do you know anything about creatine?

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Ela Law (she/her): Not specifically, no, no. I think one of the things that is quite big in the media is collagen.

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Christine Chessman: Which is also a protein that's produced by our bodies. What do you think about collagen supplements?

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Ela Law (she/her): what do I think about collagen supplements? Again, I think…

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Ela Law (she/her): For some people, they might really help. What happens when you take a good quality collagen supplement is whole collagen molecules cannot be absorbed by your body, so they need to be broken down into different, different parts, and they are used in your body

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Ela Law (she/her): Where your body needs them.

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Ela Law (she/her): So, if you're taking collagen to get rid of wrinkles and to improve skin elasticity, but your bones and ligaments actually really need some collagen.

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Ela Law (she/her): That's where it will go.

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Ela Law (she/her): So, your body uses it where it needs it, and, as far as I'm aware, there is no real evidence that it does anything for your nails and your hair.

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Christine Chessman: The thing is, your skin doesn't need it, because it is not a health problem that you have a wrinkle.

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Ela Law (she/her): No, this is it.

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Christine Chessman: The body…

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Ela Law (she/her): The body focuses on what is the most pressing issue, and, you know, your skin is, like.

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Ela Law (she/her): skin is there, still working. It might be a bit more wrinkly, so that's not priority for your body if there's something… if there's another, bit of building works going on, then that's where the protein, the collagen will go. So, yeah, I mean, for some people.

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Ela Law (she/her): it might make a slight difference to their skin. Some people swear by it. A lot of people are pissing their money down the toilet, basically, so…

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Christine Chessman: Yeah. And that's really useful advice, and I think it's… we don't need all of these supplements. I think things like vitamin D, where there's evidence behind it, and we live in a country with very little sunshine, I think, fair enough. And, you know, magnesium, I swear by magnesium, whether it's placebo or it helps me, who knows, but it…

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Ela Law (she/her): Yep.

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Christine Chessman: I find it brilliant for, to be honest, for swelling before periods. I find it really good. Perfect. So, and I think it's your individual experience is also important, so it's…

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Ela Law (she/her): Definitely.

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Christine Chessman: If you think collagen feels good for you, and you, you know, your body might feel like your joints might benefit from it.

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Ela Law (she/her): Absolutely.

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Christine Chessman: then that's okay, but it's just about trying to take… if you see an advert, and you're like, oh, I've got to buy that, it's just about trying to pause, isn't it? It's about, hold on, what is this person's agenda? You know, what are they? What are their qualifications? How do… you know what I mean?

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Christine Chessman: The glucose Goddess, don't get me started on her.

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Christine Chessman: And it's… and I think it's following people who are reputable, people who have had many years of training, who are… do you know what I mean? And just have a look at their credentials before you…

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Christine Chessman: You just go click Add to Cart.

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Ela Law (she/her): Absolutely, yeah, maybe exactly that. Also look at, is that person recommending something that they're also selling?

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah. Because then, almost by default, they're probably a little bit biased.

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Ela Law (she/her): And they're probably not. Yeah, so I think, you know, follow people that are telling you something for free.

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Ela Law (she/her): That have credentials, that have the, you know, that have been educated in that particular field. Don't go to a random nutritional advisor who tells you blah blah blah and also sells you a very expensive supplement. That's…

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Ela Law (she/her): a big red flag for me. Likewise, a PT that…

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Ela Law (she/her): you know, it tells you, oh, six weeks transformation, and you'll have a six-pack, that's a massive red flag. So it's about, you know, are they selling you something?

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Ela Law (she/her): Maybe a little bit caution is advised.

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Christine Chessman: Also, in terms of trend, of…

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Christine Chessman: you know, training your body, fitness, strength, all of that, there is no quick fix. I'm going to say that very clearly now. You kind of need to train for life.

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Christine Chessman: You need to keep going with it. There's no kind of, oh, just do it this month, and then, you know, do an 8-week challenge, then you're fine. Lose all the weight, and that's it forever. What happens then? What happens then? So it is very much…

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Christine Chessman: you know, if you want to get fit and strong, if you want… if your January is, like, right, first of January, that's… then do it for life, and that's the really unsexy version.

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Ela Law (she/her): It is, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Really unsexy. Really, isn't it? I'm not saying in 3 months you'll be fixed. I'm saying in 3 months you'll probably feel a bit better, a bit stronger, but I can't quantify that, and I can't guarantee you won't… you know what I mean? And it is… it's less… people just want it now, they want to know…

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Christine Chessman: it's gonna… you know, I'm gonna get that, I'm gonna feel better, I'm gonna look differently, brilliant, job done, fixed done, and it's not… it's not like that, is it, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): No, no, it really isn't. It really isn't. But it's, it's… Yeah, it is all about…

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Ela Law (she/her): Changing the focus slightly from… You know, the… Fixing to the sustainable well-being.

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Ela Law (she/her): I think, so, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: Because there's not… what is there to fix?

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Ela Law (she/her): Exactly. Well, we shouldn't really have to fix… ourselves.

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Ela Law (she/her): But there's no harm in trying to feel better.

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Christine Chessman: Yes, yes. And you can do whatever, whatever it takes, but really, I think…

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Ela Law (she/her): I just really invite people to think about why are you doing it? What are you doing it for? What's your outcome? And be true to that. I mean, it can be whatever it is, but…

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Ela Law (she/her): I would… I would guess most people do want to feel well.

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Christine Chessman: And you know what I've noticed about the Christmas thing? Most of my clients came back after Christmas, and most people take a break over Christmas, because Christmas is crazy.

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Christine Chessman: Even if you don't celebrate Christmas, I'm sure you were swept away in the craziness of it all. But people were like, oh, I feel so sluggish, I feel so fat, you know, I'm saying inverted commas there, and everybody was like, oh, I feel like I haven't exercised, I need to get back into… and it was this guilt that they'd actually taken two weeks

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Christine Chessman: Not exercise, and actually ate some really nice food.

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Christine Chessman: there's this guilt around that, and I do… but, so that's one side, but in the same way, your body, if you've eaten a lot of rich food for two weeks, and loads of chocolate, and loads of, like, roast potatoes, and Yorkshire puddens, and all of that, your body craves a bit of vegetable. So I also had lots of clients going, I just need vegetables.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: I need some vegetables, because your body is like, oh, okay, that's great, but I need… need something else now. So your body is really smart.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, God, yeah, but isn't that nice that people notice, actually, I do really fancy salad right now? Because we all always think, oh, if we, you know, all we want is chocolate, or sweets, or crisps, or something. And that's completely wrong. That's not all we want. That's the things that we don't let ourselves have without guilt, and therefore feel like we're always thinking about them.

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Ela Law (she/her): But if we really tune in.

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Ela Law (she/her): I think, as you just said, your clients notice, actually, I do fancy some vegetables, I do need to move my body, because I'm feeling sluggish, you know?

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Christine Chessman: And that's obviously not for everybody, so some people, you know, if you're neurodivergent, it might be… some people might really struggle to actually move, or find that energy to move, or that motivation to move.

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Christine Chessman: So that's not the case for everybody, so just put that out there. And if you do need help, find a trainer, find a friend, find an accountability person to help you with that.

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Ela Law (she/her): Definitely.

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Christine Chessman: I think I… I think we've solved it all now.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, we always solve everything, don't we? We solve the case.

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Christine Chessman: What are… what are our nutshell points for people? What are our takeaways from today, Ella?

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh gosh, I'm terrible with nuts. I would say, don't believe everything you see.

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Christine Chessman: Hmm?

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Ela Law (she/her): Use common sense, and focus on how you feel, and also not what's your friend doing? That might not be the right thing for you.

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Ela Law (she/her): you know, focus on what feels good for you. And also, when you just said about feeling guilty, I think there is a little bit of that in our age group, where we feel a little bit guilty if we don't do all of the things.

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Ela Law (she/her): So you don't have to do all of the things, basically, and don't waste your money on…

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Ela Law (she/her): supplements that there's no evidence for their effectiveness. So, I mean, by all means, try things out if you're really struggling. This is the thing that wellness industry is so good at. It kind of goes to the people who struggle with something and then sells them a solution.

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Ela Law (she/her): I'm not… I haven't got a problem with that per se. If you find something that works for you, great, I want you to feel good, but also sort of take it with a pinch of salt and see that, you know, this… it's… it's not all…

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Ela Law (she/her): Always all that it's cracked up to be. That's not a nutshell, see? This is a whole… this is a whole bag of shelled peanuts.

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Christine Chessman: Terrible attempt to earn money.

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Ela Law (she/her): What's your nutshell, Christine.

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Christine Chessman: I would say my nutshell is that the most important exercise you can do in menopause

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Christine Chessman: Is whatever movement you will keep doing.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, sustainability.

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Christine Chessman: Just literally, and to do that mobility, train your joints, like, move your joints, move… give yourself… so Tom Morrison talks about a wiggle. The most important thing is to be able to keep moving. So, keep moving so you can keep moving. Find what works for you.

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Ela Law (she/her): Yeah, I love that. I do that on a Friday now, at the gym. I just do mobility.

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Christine Chessman: Oh, yeah. I love this.

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Ela Law (she/her): I love that. People look at me a bit funny. I had… last week, I just have to say this very briefly, I had two…

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Ela Law (she/her): They can't have been much older than 18 or 19. And you know how it's trendy now to wear the same color top and bottom, and really.

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Christine Chessman: Mmm.

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Ela Law (she/her): in tight.

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Ela Law (she/her): And, butt lifted. And full makeup.

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Ela Law (she/her): All of it, and then they were filming each other doing.

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Christine Chessman: Aww.

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Ela Law (she/her): Doing the stuff. And then I was there on my little mat with my holy t-shirt and my… my weird socks, and I was doing mobility stuff, like an old person, and I felt so…

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Ela Law (she/her): smug, because I thought, well, I will be able to get off the floor when I'm 55, not sure, but… Good for you. So I, yeah, that's what I decided to do now, on a Friday. I'm just… I just do mobility, I just do…

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Christine Chessman: so important.

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Ela Law (she/her): Oh, it is! And I got that from you, because when I used to come to your early morning classes, you did that mobility, or the lunchtime classes, you did that, and I thought, oh god, that's for old people. People struggle with it.

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Christine Chessman: Because they don't sweat, and they don't…

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Christine Chessman: heart.

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Ela Law (she/her): Exactly, I think.

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Christine Chessman: hard, it's not easy, but it's more, oh, but what do we do now? And it's actually…

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Christine Chessman: It's okay to spend time.

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Christine Chessman: Prioritizing your joints and your joint health.

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Ela Law (she/her): 100%. I love it, yeah.

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Christine Chessman: So thanks to you. Well done. So let us know if you're listening at home, or in the car, or wherever you're listening.

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Ela Law (she/her): Wherever.

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Christine Chessman: Yeah, why would you be listening at home? We must travel now with our phones. Let us know what your go-to's are that basically make you feel a bit better. Maybe help with hot flashes, all of that. Give us, you know, give us a shout and let us know what works for you, and we will be back.

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Christine Chessman: next week, with… I don't know if we've got a guest next week, or if it's just us, but either way, it'll be a good afternoon. We will be back. We'll be back.

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Ela Law (she/her): Have a good week, everybody!