Your Body Is Not a Project to Fix: Unapologetic Ageing with Deb Benfield

In a world determined to sell us anti-ageing solutions, what would it look like to trust our bodies instead? This conversation explores ageism, diet culture, menopause, embodiment, and the radical possibility of ageing without apology.

 We just loved this conversation with Deb Benfield. Deb truly embodies her work and exudes an inner confidence and an ease with herself and her own body, that is at once disarming and encouraging.

Key Takeaways:

•  Diet culture and ageism often collide in midlife, creating pressure to "fix" our bodies just as they're changing in normal ways. 
•  Embodiment offers an antidote to body image struggles: moving, dancing, and inhabiting our bodies helps us remember we're bodies to be lived in, not objectified.
•  Trusting the body becomes even more important through perimenopause and menopause, when appetite, energy, and physical needs naturally fluctuate. 
•  The stories we tell ourselves about ageing matter. Research suggests that positive attitudes toward ageing can influence health, wellbeing, and longevity. 
•  Unlearning ageism starts with noticing the assumptions we make about youth, ageing, and what bodies "should" look like at different stages of life. 
•  Rather than chasing anti-ageing promises, we can focus on nurturing strength, connection, pleasure, and quality of life. 
•  Ageing unapologetically means embracing change while staying rooted in self-trust, self-compassion, and respect for the wisdom of our lived experience. 

Here are some links if you'd like to find out more about Deb, or have a look at her offerings:

Deb Benfield Website

 Instagram

Substack

Buy Deb's book - Unapologetic Aging

Transcript

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Christine Chessman: So, this week, we have a wonderful guest for you. Well, to be honest, we have a lot of wonderful guests. We do. But I was very excited this week, because we've got Deb Benfind on. On Instagram, she's Ageing Body Liberation, and please go check her out. I'm just going to read through her bio, Ella, really quickly for everybody. Deb is a registered dietitian, nutrition therapist, and

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Christine Chessman: Body Image Coach with over 40 years of experience helping people heal their relationships with food and movement in their bodies.

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Christine Chessman: This is what… the part that I'm most interested in. Her work centres anti-ageism, body liberation, and trauma-informed care. She's the author of Unapologetic Ageing, How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body.

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Christine Chessman: And, yeah, and you can work with her, we're gonna put all the details in the show notes of how you can work with her. But we had a great conversation, didn't we, Ella?

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Ela Law: Oh, amazing conversation. And we, we hit on all of those things that she sort of put in her bio, the anti-ageism kind of work, and the, you know, the, the working for

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Ela Law: towards pleasure and satisfaction and, being in partnership and relationship with our body, rather than fighting it and fix… trying to fix it all the time.

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Christine Chessman: And we talked about the whole strength training.

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Christine Chessman: And, you know, the message that… messages around movement and food that come at us as soon.

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Ela Law: this week.

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Christine Chessman: We hit menopause, or as soon as we turn 45 and beyond.

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Christine Chessman: Kind of… and she's so self-assured and confident in herself, she… it just comes across beautifully that she's done the work.

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Ela Law: Yes.

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Christine Chessman: And you can imagine how it would be so lovely to work with her, because she embodies it, rather than just kind of saying it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. A feisty episode, it's great, you will love Deb, so we can't wait to hear your thoughts.

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Christine Chessman: Let us know by dropping us a share, follow, little review would be lovely.

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Ela Law: That's amazing.

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Christine Chessman: You shall enjoy the episode.



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A huge welcome today to Deb Benfield. How are you? We are so excited to have you on, Deb.

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Thank you so much for inviting me and including

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What I have to say in what you're doing with your podcast and your…

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All your listeners, I appreciate the opportunity.

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Well, we're excited to hear what you've got to share, because you're…

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You've been doing this work for a long time, and it's… you've must… you must have such a lot of experience and expertise, and

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picked up things along the way, so we're really, really keen to hear a little bit about your story. Obviously, about your new book.

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Fucking.

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Yeah, I'm sorry.

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Which… I have ordered, but it has not arrived yet. I really wanted to have a little look before speaking to you, but Christine is prepared.

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Yeah, I loved it, absolutely loved it. Um, we're kind of talking about aging quite a lot, because I've just turned 50, I've entered the 50s, which is wonderful, and Ella is hot on my tails, aren't you?

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Uh-huh, August is May.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, so we're the perimenopausal.

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Yeah. Yeah. They could tender.

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It's becoming relevant now.

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But…

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Yeah. It gets much better.

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Yeah. So, I just…

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You're the hardest part.

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Yeah…

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Good to know.

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Perfect. Perfect. Um, yeah, we just wanted to maybe kick things off.

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with hearing a little bit about your story, um, given that you've been doing this job for 40 years.

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It would be super interesting to hear

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how things have changed, because, I mean, 40 years ago, from our point of view, we're both intuitive eating counselors. Intuitive eating wasn't even…

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Correct. Correct.

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a thing in a book. So, you must have seen all sorts of trends, all sorts of different things, and picked up loads of different

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Um, you know, trends and fads and things along the way.

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Absolutely.

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How did you navigate that, and how did… how did things change from when you first started to where you are now?

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Yeah, I think my internal compass must have been pretty tuned in to…

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Trusting the body, and…

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understanding pretty quickly that dictating to a human being how they should…

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nourish themselves felt harmful.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, like, a waste of time, frankly.

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So, I… early on,

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pursued working with therapists with my clients.

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And I was very fortunate in that one of the therapists that I developed a relationship with

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Well, it's an eating disorder therapist?

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So, also learning quickly about

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white stigma and anti-fat bias.

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And how damaging all of that was, because that was kind of what I was experiencing anyway with the clients that I was working with in larger bodies.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, it kind of naturally evolved, and I've…

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because of my support from my supervising therapist,

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you know, really got curious about…

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Other ways to approach supporting people.

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And from an internal lens, rather than an…

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telling folks what to do from an external expert.

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kind of perspective, which felt wrong, also.

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By before I became a dietitian, I was…

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into study world religions and psychology, so I already had… that was already my orientation.

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Mm-hmm.

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I'm a very unusual dietitian from the get-go.

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And I think all of that informed

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my curiosity and…

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And in continuing ed that I pursued, I was very fortunate that I found the right people.

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And then the intuitive eating book came along, and that was like, yes!

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Which was very… it was just kind of affirming, and now a container for us to all, like, orient ourselves around.

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And, you know, there are some… there's some problems with intuitive eating, too, if you want to talk about that. I mean, it's not for everybody.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah, I would love to talk about that.

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Yeah.

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Because I think we've had, um, Evelyn and Elise, so the… the co-finders of, um, Inter of Eating on the podcast.

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And I'd be really interested, because I've heard it so many times from clients, it's not for me, it's absolutely not for me.

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Yeah.

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Did you want to dig into that a little bit?

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Totally up to you.

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Yeah, I would love to. From… do you want to talk from your experience personally, or with your clients, or just generally?

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I think from… I mean, I've just had so much…

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time with clients.

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And I am…

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a very curious and respectful…

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and compassionate provider, in that I lean into what is supporting my client and trusting their lived experience.

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And I hear them loud and clear.

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And now, I think we know, I think we have data that supports,

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that not everybody has access.

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to interpreting there.

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hunger and their fullness.

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And it really does contribute to the storyline that I'm wrong, and I'm broken.

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And that I'm beyond repair.

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And, you know, therefore, the next diet is the only…

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thing available for a lot of people. That's the only thing they're aware of.

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So, I know you already know this, but there's also some timing involved. I think people are early…

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I work mostly with eating disorder clients.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, early in that process, people just don't have an internal connection, and certainly don't have access to trusting.

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And anything that may come up, right?

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So, they need somewhat…

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of a flexible structure to go by.

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at least with timing and ideas around some balance.

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And pursuing satisfaction, which is one of my favorite things to talk about.

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Mm-hmm.

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you know, a lot… not letting yourself get too hungry, those kinds of external guidelines are so helpful until a person…

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Mm-hmm.

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can get their footing with us.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And there may or may not arrive there. They may… that's… that's… we don't really know until people are really engaged.

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And…

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Yeah, I totally agree with that, actually. Just to… just jump in there quickly. With the, um…

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you gotta meet the person where they're at, and if they haven't got that access, and I'm thinking, personally, of I got a lot of clients who, or have had in the past as well,

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Um, who are neurodivergent, and for a lot of them, having access to those internal signals

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Yeah.

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is really confusing, if at all possible. So, I think seeing the intuitive eating framework as a flexible approach of, you know, what can we use, what can we pick out of there that is relevant to you, I think is really important, rather than going, no, you have to do this, this, and that, and we're going from

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Yeah.

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Principle 1 to Principle 10, um, and we have to…

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Yeah.

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you know, cover all of them. I think that's not serving anybody.

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Right. Interesting.

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To be completely honest. So, I would be completely in agreement with you that it's probably not for everybody.

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If we take it as a, this is how we need to do it, because then, again, we have a prescriptive kind of framework, and we…

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we want to move away from that and get people to kind of feel their way around it and see what works for them.

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And, yeah. Yeah.

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Right.

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I mean, if I'm…

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And so, you know, sorry, sorry, Debra.

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It's alright. If our goal is for… to help people trust themselves and trust their bodies, ultimately, I think that's the goal.

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Yeah.

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And, um, like, help people find that they can do this, to under…

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Mm-hmm.

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Wow, I am…

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Mm-hmm.

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very capable of regulating my eating, and I'm very capable of

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being confident in the way that I nourish myself.

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Yeah.

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And support my body, it's, like, following

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can know some internal connection that may or may not have…

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like, a root that you can slowly water and nourish and create over time. So it may take

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time. I think this… this is not a quick and easy, and it's not a straight line. People have to…

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Yeah.

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have some access to discovering.

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what they can.

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discovered about their actual strengths.

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Yeah, and I… it's certainly from an eating disorder lens, so, um, when I was first in recovery from anorexia, there's no way! There's no way I could… I have no idea what normal eating was, what a portion was, how to eat, you just…

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I had zero clue, so it just wouldn't have been accessible at that point.

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Yeah.

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Um, and certainly they… I mean, there's… there is now, there's talk of, kind of,

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integrating intuitive eating into eating disorder recovery a little bit more.

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Um, and I see value in that some… in some ways, because my daughter is sadly struggling with anorexia at the minute, and it's coming from a very tight… it's almost regimented when you have your snack, when you have your lunch, when you have… how much you have, exactly.

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to, oh, you're on your own now. It's… there needs to be a graduated approach to somehow…

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Or I think you can just go back and forward and just never actually find that freedom that we're all looking for.

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Right.

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Yeah, yeah, the freedom.

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And the… that liberation, you know, is so deeply connected to your confidence in yourself, your trust in your body.

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your relationship. I mean, when I was thinking about our

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conversation today. The word that just was dominating me was relationship.

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I mean, that's… I think that's what I really think about the most, and that's what I wrote about in my book.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think if you can…

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really stop looking at your body as, like, this object to fix.

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And shift into a relational…

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experience. It really does.

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To me, make the biggest difference.

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Yeah.

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And does the most healing.

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And that includes with movement.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm, yeah, that was one of my favorite sentences from your bio when I read it, um…

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You said it's to reconnect with…

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Yeah.

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Their bodies as trusted partners, so there's that relationship aspect, not objects or projects to fix.

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you know.

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And I think that is so…

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um… poignant, and I really… I love that. That's what our work is all about, isn't it? It's to build the trust,

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to be in partnership with our bodies rather than to fight it at every single corner.

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So, I love that.

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Yeah, and it really does inform your choices. If you can…

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100%.

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Remember to…

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reorient and ask yourself that question with a lot of curiosity.

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You'll find your way. It's very, very helpful, but it does require some effort around developing that trust, which is not…

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Yeah.

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Which is not easy.

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goal. Our home culture, everything is coming at us to make us feel like we can't be trusted.

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Totally.

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And I think it is that stage of life, isn't it, where it's that intersection of diet culture and ageism, isn't it? It's like…

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Hmm.

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Yay! And now, so we thought we'd almost got a handle on it, and then…

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And then it's just coming at us now from all directions, you know, we are something to fix.

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Every, every aspect of who we are can be fixed.

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Hmm. Hmm.

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Um, yeah.

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I… I work really hard to not…

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constantly being enraged.

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That must be hard.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, lots of reasons, but this whole, like, the menopause space…

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This is a dangerous space.

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It really is, yeah, we've talked about it a lot over the last few months, because it is obviously something on our minds,

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And you get bombarded with…

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Solutions and fixes, and gummies, and all sorts of nonsense, and you feel like you have to buy into it, because…

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Obviously, it's gonna make you feel better, because, you know, N equals 1 decided this is the supplement I'm selling you, therefore it must work for you too, and it's just infuriating.

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It is. And then longevity medicine is woven into that now, too, with…

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So, we're…

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Yeah.

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One is the super-agers.

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Never…

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Yeah.

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And I… that was the bit that I wanted to talk to you about, because I'm holding your book up now, which is available everywhere.

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Put that in at the end. Um, the problem with moving for longevity, and this is fascinating for us, because we've had several influencers on over the past few months, really, and we had…

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Elizabeth, um, from this woman lifts, what? Sir?

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Mm-hmm. Elizabeth Davis.

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Yep.

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interviews from, um, This Woman Lyft, who is, you know, absolutely will die on this hill for strength training, but, um…

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It really has got me thinking, what you've written, because I very much at the beginning thought there's too much pressure on women to lift weights. I'm getting really upset because it's another thing they have to do, and they feel they're not quite measuring up, and it's all…

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:38.000
And then I sort of thought, but actually,

00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:50.000
It is really good for women over 50 to build strength so that they don't break bones, and so that they're more agile, and so that they can enjoy their life a bit more. And then I got confused.

00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:51.000
Yeah.

00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.000
So, now I'm kind of somewhere in the middle.

00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:59.000
where I kind of feel a bit upset at the way it's been sold to women.

00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:08.000
Um, because it's… we were talking about this before we started recording, it's about the endless comparison, and we're not quite doing enough, and we have to be athletes now.

00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:12.000
And we're allowed to be strong, but only if it looks this way and not that way, and it's…

00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:18.000
it's all very prescriptive, but yeah, I'd love to talk to you a bit about why

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:22.000
what you think about the problem of moving for longevity, and it's sort of…

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.000
Yeah, where do you stand on that?

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.000
Well, when you first started describing

00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.000
this, like, quandary, because it is a quandary.

00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:33.000
Hmm.

00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.000
I think we do have compelling data.

00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:42.000
that it is very wise to do strength training.

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.000
And…

00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:51.000
from the lens that I just described around relationship, I think we have to honor… I mean…

00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.000
As much as you possibly can to honor

00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:59.000
Like, what is gonna make you feel…

00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.000
more connected to your body, more alive.

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.000
And…

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:13.000
maybe even, like, stronger could be of value, but I think you have to do some internal processing around…

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000
what your values are, and how you want to spend your precious time.

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.000
Because we have to understand…

00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:25.000
We are coming to the place that it's clear that we have less time.

00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.000
Mm-hmm. Yep.

00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:33.000
And so, to clarify our values about how you want to spend that time, and how you want to feel,

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.000
Feels really important to me.

00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:36.000
Mm-hmm.

00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.000
It's like, I have not…

00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000
Dedicated…

00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.000
time to heavy lifting.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.000
Mm-hmm.

00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.000
discussions.

00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:53.000
I love how I feel when I do yoga, and when I go for hikes.

00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:58.000
And one of the questions that you sent me was around challenge.

00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:04.000
Like, I love feeling… I personally love feeling challenged.

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:09.000
Within the things that I enjoy. Like, even dancing. I spontaneously dance.

00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.000
As frequently as possible in my home.

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.000
Or out of the world, too, but in my home is where I just, like…

00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:22.000
I have music playing most of the time, and usually that music invites me to move my body.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.000
And I love how that feels, and sometimes,

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:30.000
I'll follow somebody who's trying to teach me a move, too. And that's a challenge.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.000
Mm-hmm.

00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:38.000
For my whole… it's great for my brain. I know there's new research on how dancing is, like, the number one

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:39.000
Mm-hmm.

00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000
recommendation for brain health.

00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.000
Yeah.

00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.000
Which thrills me!

00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:44.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.000
That's what I'm talking about. Things that…

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.000
Allow you to move in playful ways.

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:54.000
And challenge you, and get your brain engaged. I mean…

00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:00.000
I am aware that I need to develop muscle or protect my muscle mass.

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:06.000
I'm very fortunate, genetically, I think I got to start with more muscle mass than some.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.000
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:12.000
And I've been a single mom, so I think my body had to do a lot of work.

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.000
Mm-hmm.

00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:18.000
get me through most days, and to support myself and my kids.

00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:22.000
So, I've had lots of opportunities for challenge.

00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.000
physical challenge.

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:31.000
And that has benefited my muscle mass, but also my whole body and my spirit, and my mood.

00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:37.000
Right? So, I just feel like we need to get out of the…

00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.000
the binary of, like, challenge versus care, I feel like.

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.000
I think there's a way to pull it all together, and…

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.000
It may look different, different days and different, different weeks.

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.000
Mm-hmm.

00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.000
People with eating disorders have a very hard time

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000
With that kind of flexibility.

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.000
like, to think about, like, it's okay to take a day off is very tricky.

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000
Yeah.

00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.000
Because it's all or nothing, right? And diet culture and vice are all or nothingness.

00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.000
Mm-hmm.

00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:13.000
So, to get playful and go, I can listen to my body, and today feels like a day that I need to rest,

00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:21.000
Or do a restorative yoga that really lets my nervous system get some of my own attention today.

00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.000
Like, say yes to that, and…

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.000
then really challenge yourself with a…

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:30.000
Like a big hike.

00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.000
That really, really pushes you.

00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:34.000
And I think…

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:42.000
But I'm not getting into your strength training question, I'm not… I feel like I need to get to that, too, because yes, we need to…

00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.000
do what we can to include strength training. If it fits how you want to live your life.

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:50.000
If it honors your relationship with your body.

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.000
Yeah.

00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.000
And I think that's the key, isn't it? If it honours your relationship with your body, and I think

00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.000
We're all very unique.

00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:58.000
Yes.

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:09.000
And our… you know, we should… I think we're all looking at each other. What are they doing? We need to do the same, we need to do… rather than sort of thinking about how do we fail, and what works for us, or what feels good in our bodies.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:14.000
And I've always said the most important movement you can do is one that you're gonna keep doing.

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:15.000
Yep.

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:20.000
that you enjoy and keep coming back to, because rather than doing, you know, 6 months of heavy

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.000
lifting and herding it, and just never want to do it again. It's not…

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000
Yeah.

00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.000
You know, I… the most important is something that you really love and you come back to again and again.

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:32.000
I just want to read from your book, just for a second.

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:39.000
So you've said with the problem of moving for longevity, prioritizing activities you believe are optimal for lifespan extension.

00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:47.000
over those you genuinely enjoy reduces your capacity for playfulness, pleasure, and satisfaction.

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.000
Movement motivated by fear ticks the fun out of activities.

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.000
And I just loved that so much, because so often you forget about play.

00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:01.000
And it is just… it gets all a bit serious, doesn't it?

00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.000
Mm-hmm.

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.000
you know, that's… as a trainer, it's, you know, it's…

00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:11.000
Clients are like, oh, where is it supposed to hurt? Is the most… the question I hear the most, where is it supposed to hurt?

00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.000
God. Aw, that's so sad!

00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.000
Whoa!

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000
And I'm like, it's not supposed to…

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000
Oh my gosh, those…

00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.000
You know,

00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.000
That is… we've forgotten how to play and just actually enjoy.

00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.000
moving our bodies, haven't we?

00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.000
I mean, I'm… it's gonna take me a while to get over that sentence.

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000
Yeah. Now, I'm not joking. It is…

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.000
really bothering.

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.000
That's awful, isn't it? Yeah.

00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:39.000
That's just, um, consistently the one that comes back over and over. But, yes!

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.000
framework. We have been brainwashed to think

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:48.000
That there's only one way to do this, and that is to go through the pain.

00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000
Mm-hmm.

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Yeah.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.000
I think that's business culture.

00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.000
Business culture really has us believing that we have to…

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:54.000
We have to do their time and the pain.

00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:01.000
And Deb, did you ever have that relationship with movement yourself?

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:07.000
Where you felt… where you saw it as punishing, or you saw it as a chore, or have you kind of early on, sort of,

00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.000
tuned into that.

00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.000
feeling good in your body.

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:18.000
I was a runner for a while, but what I always said, I mean, the joke for me was always, when it starts hurting, I stop doing it.

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000
Not so much.

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.000
Yeah.

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.000
I mean, I think…

00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:27.000
It's a sign that your body's like, hey, hey, hey.

00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.000
Mm-hmm.

00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:33.000
It's time to walk, or take a rest, or stretch, or…

00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.000
Like, I perceive that as information.

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:42.000
That needs to be honored, and as a yoga teacher, I tell all my…

00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000
folks, like, pushing through pain.

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.000
creates injury.

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:47.000
Yeah. 100%.

00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:55.000
You have to listen. Yeah, you have to listen, especially in yoga, when you're thinking that there is some sort of, like,

00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:00.000
full pose that you're supposed to be showing up as. I mean, as a yoga teacher, my constant…

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.000
focus is, like…

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.000
Poses our invitations into your body.

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.000
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:11.000
that I teach as, like,

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.000
Everything creates sensation.

00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:17.000
So, you can have connection to your body through sensation.

00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.000
And how… what do you do with that?

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.000
sensation, rather than your body

00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.000
doing things to your body to create a pose.

00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.000
afraid people push through, buddy.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Yeah.

00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:35.000
information to get to this full expression.

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.000
And end up withuries.

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.000
All over the place.

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.000
Definitely.

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:45.000
I think, I think training… I trained in Pilates in the last… at COVID, during COVID.

00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.000
And that changed everything for me, because it slowed everything down.

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:57.000
And it was tuning in to your body, and really just taking time, rather than just… you know, let's lift heavy, let's sweat, let's…

00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.000
And I think… and I brought that to my clients now, and I…

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.000
has made the world of difference.

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.000
So, again, the thing I say most is slow down,

00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000
I think I say that more than anything else.

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.000
Um, and most of them just want to get it over with, and I'm like, no, tune into your body! And they're like…

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.000
Yep.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:22.000
But that tells you… that tells you a lot if you want to get it over with. You're obviously not enjoying it, you're doing it for a purpose that has been…

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.000
set to you is the thing that you need to work on.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.000
it kind of loses the pleasure principle a little bit, doesn't it?

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:41.000
And I think… so I think I was looking at that question, Ella, just as you were saying about the movement doesn't have to be joyful in the moment, but I think… I think we've covered that, do you think?

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:43.000
Yeah, I think… I think we have.

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:51.000
Yeah, it's all… it's nuance, isn't it? It's nuanced, and I like what you said, Deb, about…

00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:07.000
you know, we… there's a lot of shoulds, we should be doing this, we should be doing that, and this is… I mean, the strength training, whilst we have evidence that is beneficial, it's another should, isn't it? It's just another thing in disguise. It's just like, oh, now we found something else that we can…

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:13.000
Um, you know, throw at people that they have to do, and if they don't do it, they're failing at life.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Yeah.

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:20.000
It's just another iteration, and it just keeps coming, and it's just so difficult to weed through it and find a way

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:31.000
to… to really do connect with our bodies, because we're being told left, right, and center what we should and shouldn't be doing. So, how do we know? So, tell us a little bit more about your…

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:37.000
passion about satisfaction and pleasure, because that's come out in a lot of your posts, it's…

00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.000
It seems like that is the kind of key to…

00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000
Mm-hmm.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.000
to the way that you work with people, to reignite that sense of pleasure and satisfaction.

00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.000
I just feel like…

00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:58.000
The access to satisfaction, particularly. I mean, that is not that easy.

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.000
It may sound easy.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Mmm.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:05.000
But to me, satisfaction is nuance within itself.

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Mm-hmm.

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.000
I mean, I think you… now I'm thinking about eating, sorry, I need to immediately… I'm starting to…

00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:10.000
Yeah.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.000
No, don't…

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000
But I think it applies to all of it.

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Right? To me,

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:21.000
These are very much the same thing when it comes to movement.

00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.000
Hmm.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:28.000
It's just not what I… it's not in my scope of practice to talk as much about movement, except for the yoga piece, so…

00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:29.000
Mm-hmm.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.000
I'm gonna let you guys chime in.

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:38.000
But understanding, like, if you have been craving lasagna…

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:43.000
You're not going to be satisfied by a BLT, right?

00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000
you have to pay attention to so many different aspects

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:53.000
of your present experience.

00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:57.000
Yes, you're gonna feel more satisfied if there's fat and protein and carbohydrates.

00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Yes, you may have your own particular, like, I like to end,

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.000
my meal with a little taste of sweetness, or a little crunchiness.

00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:13.000
I mean, when I talk to clients, they have their own preferences around texture and tastes,

00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:17.000
and cravings, and that's gonna shift and change.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Like, if you did not get a lot of sleep last night, or if you spent a lot of time doing outdoors activities or gardening,

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.000
You're going to have more appetite following that.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.000
Your body does…

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.000
have its own dynamic. I say our bodies are a dynamic ecosystems.

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.000
They're not the same every day. We're very dynamic.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.000
Mm-mm.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.000
And so listening to preferences and appetite,

00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:53.000
and cravings, I think guides your way to that satisfaction.

00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:54.000
Mm-hmm.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.000
You can then have the experience of stopping,

00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.000
When you're satisfied, which…

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:06.000
feels so good to people who have felt out of control, who have felt all over the place.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.000
with disorder in their eating, or have followed some sort of…

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:15.000
External rule set, so that they feel like they're only doing it right.

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.000
Hmm.

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.000
If they… if they, like,

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:22.000
count the points, or meet the macros.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.000
like, messing all of that up and starting to realize

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:32.000
that your body is wired to teach you that. And again, we've talked about how

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.000
That's not true for everybody. I also work with a lot of neurodiversity, and that's…

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.000
not always the case.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.000
That may be a little bit slippery, or not quite as clear.

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.000
For some people. It also changes with the season of your life.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:48.000
Yeah.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.000
When you guys are in perimenopause, you may have…

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.000
A rollercoaster of an appetite to track.

00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:00.000
Hot flashes change appetite. Appetite, change hot flash. I mean, all of that is dynamic.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000
Hmm.

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.000
your appetite may shift and change there, too.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:10.000
As I've gotten older, my appetite is not nearly as strong as it once was.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:11.000
Mm-hmm.

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.000
That's real. That's… that's my body changing.

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000
Mmm.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:21.000
It's reflective of the changes in my body. It's… my appetite is tracking with that.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:22.000
So let's…

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.000
Mmm. And it's coming to accepting that, rather than fighting it and fixing it. That's the…

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000
That's important, isn't it?

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.000
Absolutely. I've noticed it in the first place. I mean, the slowing down that you said early on…

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000
is necessary.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.000
for all of this as well. I mean, slowing down and checking in with yourself.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.000
Hmm.

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:44.000
As you make choices and while you're eating.

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.000
is… they will guide you. Not always.

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.000
Hmm.

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.000
It's a…

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:56.000
I would… I was a water kayaker at another chapter in my life.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.000
And I use many analogies from that experience.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000
In that you have to…

00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:05.000
practice? Do you know what the role is? You have to have…

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.000
the capacity to row your kayak when you're in the rapids.

00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:16.000
freaks me out so much, otherwise I would give it a go. That is… that is the thing that stops me from even going anywhere near a kayak.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:21.000
Well, I don't know if we have time for this. I'll try to make this brief.

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.000
Mm-hmm.

00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:23.000
But you have to practice.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:24.000
doing that in the pool…

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:25.000
Yeah.

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.000
with people you trust around you, where…

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Everything is a known quantity.

00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.000
Mmm.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:37.000
and you practice it, and practice it, and practice it, and practice it, until you literally have

00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.000
Yeah.

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.000
Muscle memory. Your body knows how to do it.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.000
Yeah.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:42.000
And then you go to a link.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Where there's a little less control, but still pretty…

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:51.000
controllable, and you have people that you trust along the way.

00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:56.000
Then you go to a gentle river, and so you take those steps,

00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:03.000
learn, like, my body does this regardless of the experience. It's all the…

00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:10.000
externals around me. So, same for eating. I say it's always the same for eating when you're trying to practice.

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.000
developing this interoception,

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:23.000
You have to practice slowing down and having a controlled setting, like an afternoon snack every day, where you're really trying to eat slowly and check in with yourself.

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.000
don't do it, like, at a dinner party.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000
Yeah.

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:32.000
You're in the rapids of the eating, you know, or a family event where people are saying,

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.000
unhelpful things, like, that's the rapids.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:44.000
You don't expect this kind of connection to your body, and listening to your body when you're in those places.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:50.000
But over time, you do develop access to this muscle memory with your body.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.000
With… it takes time.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.000
I love that analogy, don't you? That's brilliant.

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:59.000
It's, uh, do you ever still… you don't do it still, then, Deb?

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:00.000
I don't…

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.000
No.

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:07.000
I would do some gentle, like, recreational, but not white water.

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000
Scary, isn't it?

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.000
I don't see…

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.000
Really? We're also super exciting!

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.000
It's really exciting.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:18.000
I lost my nervous system doesn't want more adrenaline.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.000
I know, I think I used to… it's interesting, I used to do, um…

00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:35.000
cold water swimming, so we… I live in Brighton by the sea, in the south coast, and I used to go… and I used to go into the… we used to go in as a group. When it was properly choppy, and I used to dive through freezing cold water,

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:36.000
Wow.

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.000
No, I don't want to go near it! I don't want to…

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.000
It's too cold!

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:46.000
And it's… it's just that change within, sort of, 3 or 4 years, completely different.

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:47.000
Yeah, I'm…

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:53.000
And I'm kind of going with it, because I just don't feel that need to do it. I don't feel that pull towards it, so I'm kind of just…

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:57.000
It's another example of the things that we should be doing, we should all be…

00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.000
Going into the cold water and swim.

00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000
In it.

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:01.000
Yeah. Yep.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:07.000
Yeah. And, um, I… I kind of am really interested. We're talking a lot about our relationship to our bodies.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:23.000
Hmm.

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Go on.

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:31.000
Do you ever… so, Stephanie Michelle, who I know you were on her podcast recently, she was on ours as well, and she talks about the living body versus the objectified body, and how sometimes she is in that objectified body state, and it's trying to get back into the living state, or the living body state. And, um, do you… do you sort of go between both? Are you mainly…

00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.000
The living body, do you kind of…

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:40.000
fluctuate, oscillate between both, or are you kind of, after all the years of work, are you mainly…

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.000
the living body.

00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Well, I think what happens is…

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:51.000
When I find myself caught in judging, criticizing, looking at

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:55.000
my body. I have practiced this enough, and practice is the word.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000
practice soon.

00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:02.000
that I notice, and bring myself back into…

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:07.000
different way of thinking, and I've written about this, too.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.000
It depends on the mood I'm in. Sometimes I'm fuck patriarchy, sometimes I'm just like…

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:18.000
Yeah.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:19.000
Yes.

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.000
Straight up. Like, I know this… this is somebody else's idea is in my head, and I'm measuring myself against somebody else's idea, and I know that.

00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.000
And that's very helpful, and sometimes I just feel recessy, and it helps me just get out of it.

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Okay, so…

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.000
Sometimes it's much more loving.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Mm-hmm.

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:40.000
And I remember, you know, how supportive my body has been, and I really do believe that my body is

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Always on my side.

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:49.000
Like, I have that relationship, my body is on my side and carrying me through, and always has.

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:54.000
It's not, and I know that's not true for everybody. I also have clients with…

00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:00.000
disabilities and cancer stories, and I have a much more complicated…

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.000
way of experiencing that.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.000
And also, like, sometimes one of…

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:11.000
I'm going to the coast in a couple of weeks, and…

00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:17.000
You know, of course, I'm trying on my swimsuit and…

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Yeah, it's… I don't think it ever gets…

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:28.000
any easier around that kind of exposure, and so I have to… I have to practice, I have to process, like…

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.000
this judgmental thoughts that are coming up.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.000
Yeah, of course.

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Yeah, I think that's… it's quite nice just to hear that it is about practice, it's not just…

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:47.000
You know, as easy as… or it's not just some people are able to do it, some people are. It's just… it's work. I just see it as every day, I work at it a little bit.

00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Because every day, your body is changing in some way.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Yep.

00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.000
And, you know, you can't…

00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:57.000
I don't know, it's… I find it strange now, because it is…

00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:05.000
I am, I'm now, to my kids, I'm very old. But people have started calling me Madam, and I'm like, what?

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:06.000
What do you mean? I'm like…

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.000
Well, that's just rude.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:14.000
What do you mean, madam? And, um, you know, nobody's looking for my ID anymore, and it's…

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.000
And it is… and that is, you know, it doesn't matter at all, but it is…

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:27.000
something I have to adapt myself to, because I'm… naturally, my brain will go to self-criticism and need to fix it, need to, you know, get all the eye creams, need to…

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.000
And, um, it is work.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.000
But it's… it's much easier the more you practice, the much easier to kind of…

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.000
I don't know, I'll get into that more embodied state, and…

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:50.000
I always say to clients who struggle with the body image so much when they come to me is that if you're really struggling to get into the body and move a little bit. So, like you said about the dancing,

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:56.000
Just… just get into the body, and so that you're sort of closer to it, and you remember that relationship, where you just…

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Remember that it's not… we're not objectified

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.000
beings. We're not… we're not ornaments. We're, you know, our bodies are not just there to be stared at.

00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:10.000
Um, and we're… I don't know, Ella, what would you say to that?

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.000
Yeah, no, totally agree with that. I think…

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:21.000
I think adaptation is the key here, isn't it? That we constantly have to adapt to things changing, and I think…

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:33.000
with that practice that you both mentioned, that is possible, but if we are stuck in when we were in our 20s,

00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Yeah.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:44.000
then we can't adapt, and then we feel shit, basically. And we feel like we're not doing it right, or whatever. But if we adapt and we acknowledge the fact that as we age, our bodies change, our minds change, our brains change, everything changes.

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:50.000
The way that we are perceived changes, the way that people respond to us or address us changes.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:56.000
We just… if we practice that flexibility and that sort of…

00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000
Yeah.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:02.000
almost taking it in our stride and processing it in real time, I think it is a lot easier than if we

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:08.000
if we feel like we always have to go back to how things used to be when it was just easier, in inverted commas.

00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:14.000
So I think it is… yeah, there's so much truth in what you both just said about practice and adaptation.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Yeah, and I think…

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Sorry. Underneath this is ageism.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.000
I think we have to address…

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.000
Mm-hmm.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Totally true.

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:26.000
The story that you carry…

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.000
about being old.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.000
Mm-hmm.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:36.000
I am finding myself so frustrated on Instagram.

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:44.000
Because is it… is it the algorithm, or are you guys seeing, like, people are talking about this more, people are talking about aging and ageism more, maybe it's just the outcome.

00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.000
Mm, mmm.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:50.000
But when I hear people talk about it, a lot of times it feels like there's still…

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:55.000
very ageist in the things that they're saying. They don't realize it, they don't…

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.000
Mm-hmm.

00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:01.000
understand that they're also continuing to make old bad.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:02.000
Mm-hmm.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:09.000
people want to say, don't let the old man in, don't let the old woman in, like, don't allow yourself to think of yourself as old.

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.000
There's, like, a goal?

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.000
Mmm.

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000
That means that you perceive old to be bad.

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:16.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.000
I feel like we have to do some work on how

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Old is…

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.000
another narrative, just like…

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.000
fat. Just…

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.000
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.000
Like, we make bodies bad.

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:37.000
We make a good and a bad way of being in a body, and old is just another one on the list.

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Yeah.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.000
Like, oh, really? Just means you've been here longer.

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:42.000
Yeah.

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000
Yeah, it's a privilege.

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:45.000
That is a prevalent.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:46.000
That is so true!

00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:52.000
We have to really look at all of the associations we have…

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.000
About Old.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.000
Mmm.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:59.000
recognize that that's all narrative.

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:05.000
That's… that's the exact experience. I mean, I'm 67, and I feel great, and I'm doing whatever I want.

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Mm-hmm.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.000
Yeah.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.000
I mean, it's a… I am very excited about this.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000
time in my life. I'm…

00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.000
Mm-hmm.

00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000
I have more options.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:20.000
I don't feel so much pressure about so many things.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000
I'm fortunate in that I'm…

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:28.000
very healthy, and that I'm aware of right this minute. Also know all of that is temporary.

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.000
Mm-hmm.

00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:36.000
I pick… I… anything could happen. I could be disabled tomorrow. I mean, all of us could, but that's more true as we get older.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Mm-hmm.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:40.000
But for now, I feel very…

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.000
Like, just like I always have.

00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.000
And I think…

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:50.000
I think it's such an important point you brought up, because there's massive amount of internalized ageism.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.000
And all of us, especially.

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000
All of this all the time.

00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Yeah, you just, especially with internalized fatphobia as well, which I've had to look at.

00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.000
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.000
Um, a lot within myself.

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000
To me, it's all the same. Once you recognize

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.000
The thoughts are showing up about body size.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:10.000
You can just tack on the age piece, because it's right here. It's the same.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.000
Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000
Yeah.

00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:21.000
And practice the same. I mean, this is another opportunity for practice, recognizing the associations we make with the young and the associations we make with old.

00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Write it all down, and then…

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.000
Give it a good laugh, because it's all…

00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:28.000
Ridiculous! It's ridiculous.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:37.000
And it is that thing of, I turned 50, and people… I got quite annoyed, because some people were like, oh, you look good for 50, and I was like, mmm…

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000
Hmm.

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:44.000
Or you don't make 50, and I'm like, that is the most… the biggest compliment you can give somebody. You don't look as old as you are.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:50.000
What is… I'm not… it just made me sort of think again, what is wrong with looking your age?

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.000
Why are we… it's like when we have babies, we want to look like we've never had babies.

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:56.000
Mmm.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.000
Right.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.000
And it's… it's a similar thing when you're 50, you want to look like you're 35. What… and it's…

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:04.000
Mm-hmm.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:05.000
Yeah.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.000
Why? And I was almost shame if you… you looked scared that you are, and it is…

00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:15.000
Yeah, shame is the really important piece, right? And that's all because of the narrative. That's all because we've been told it's bad.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:21.000
Yeah, it's a lot to push against. It's a lot. That's why I wrote my book, because it's…

00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:22.000
A lot to push against.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:23.000
Yeah.

00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.000
recognizing that…

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.000
It is worthwhile to push against it, too.

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.000
responsible for freedom.

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.000
Definitely. But it's also important, too, just to start recognizing it, because just like…

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:44.000
you know, the fatphobia and anti-fat bias, that's something that a lot of people aren't really aware of. They just compliment someone, oh, you lost weight, you look great, that kind of narrative. It's the same thing with

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:52.000
What Christine just said, oh, you don't look 50, you look good for your age, all of that kind of narrative is seemingly…

00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000
fine, compliments, whatever we want to call it, but actually underlying it is, no, there's a good and bad

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.000
kind of binary here, isn't it?

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:03.000
Mmm.

00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Absolutely, and that is fascinating to me, and you guys probably already know this, but…

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:14.000
that we actually have data now that shows that it affects our longevity the way we perceive aging.

00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.000
Mmm, right.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.000
Absolutely.

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:21.000
In civilized ageism decreases your life expectancy by seven and a half years.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:31.000
If you have a positive mindset,

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000
Mm-hmm.

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:33.000
And, like, embrace that aging, you know, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you have an expectation,

00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.000
that aging is, like…

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:44.000
a vital process for you, and it's not so scary. It literally changes your brain and your life expectancy.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000
Wow.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000
It's wild.

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:56.000
That is… I'd have heard… I've heard that research before, but I've… and I've also heard it in terms of dementia as well, and kind of delaying dementia diagnoses, because

00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Yep.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Like, my mum recently passed with dementia, but my granny on my mum's side and my other granny both had dementia. My brother and I, I think, were surrounded by it.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:23.000
And people… my brother is like, ooh, we're gonna get it as well. And I refuse to kind of… I'm like, well, why would you think that? It's not helpful, it's not actually gonna help

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
Absolutely.

00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:29.000
anything to think that's… and I just have a very positive approach to it, and I do… and there's research behind that as well, that it's that self-fulfilling prophecy of worrying about it constantly, and every thought you have in your head is, hold on, I can't remember that.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:36.000
Um, and it is… it's… it reminded me of what you're saying, because I don't think that's said enough.

00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Mmm.

00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:38.000
I think that…

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:43.000
Yeah, I think it's really important. It's Becca Levy's research, and it's in the resource section of my book, and I mean, I cite her research.

00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:46.000
It's really important to read.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Yeah.

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:48.000
That's exciting, Ella!

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.000
Very exciting. I cannot wait to get my hands on your book.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000
I really can't. I'm really excited to read it.

00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:56.000
Sorry, thank you, Micah. Edits.

00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:06.000
I know I have it propped up, so I… where I teach in my home studio, I have your book propped up on the bookshelf so that everybody… so it's kind of standing, and lots of people have gone, oh, oh, what?

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.000
Then I'm like, yeah.

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:15.000
So it's just… that's kind of, for me, I've always had, kind of, books that I think are very important for my clients to kind of…

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:20.000
check into. But, um, Deb, we cannot thank you enough. We could chat to you for a lot longer, and…

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.000
I could keep talking to… I feel like we've just skimmed the surface.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:25.000
We have.

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.000
Just on… we might have to… we might have to invite you back, mightn't we?

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.000
Okay, great.

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000
Yeah, I think maybe part two.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.000
We need a Part C.

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.000
you know, the big…

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.000
Yeah, but I'm thank you so much.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:36.000
Thank you.

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:37.000
Definitely.

00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:38.000
time, and we're gonna put everything in the show notes, um, and details of your book.

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000
How, if we want to work with you, what's the best way to contact you, Deb?

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:48.000
I… my name is my… the name of my website.

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.000
Brilliant.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:57.000
On Substack, you can find me… I mean, you can find me on Instagram and on Substack, just by using Debbinfield, yeah.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Mm-hmm. Easy, perfect.

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.000
Thank you.

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Brilliant. We'll put it all in the show notes, but for now, thank you so much for joining, and for all our listeners, we will see you next time.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Thank you