How to get out of your head and into your body. A conversation with Stefanie Michele

Ela and I have been excited about this episode for quite some time.

Stefanie Michele* is a binge eating recovery coach as well as host of the very popular Life After Diets podcast with former guest Sarah Dosanjh.

She has recently completed her training as a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and now approaches her recovery coaching through this trauma-informed lens.

Through our conversation, we touched on the following topics:

• Why striving to be 'body positive' doesn't work for everyone.
• Are we applying our perfectionist gaze to body image work?
• How can we start 'feeling' more and 'thinking' less about our bodies and how we look.
• Why binge eating recovery is possible at any age.
• How being body neutral doesn't mean not caring about our bodies.
• The 2 bodies that live within us: the Objectified Body vs the Living Body

Please listen to the episode and enjoy.  We'd love to hear your thoughts.

*Stefanie Michele is a coach, writer, somatic practitioner, and certified Intuitive Eating counselor. She draws on both her professional training and her own lived experience of recovery to help people heal from binge eating, restriction cycles, body image struggles, and the pull of diet culture. Stefanie co-hosts the Life After Diets podcast and writes on Substack about the bigger cultural forces that shape how we relate to ourselves. Her work blends psychology, nervous system science, and real-world experience to guide people toward a more peaceful relationship with food and themselves.

Please reach out if you would like some support with your relationship to food OR movement. Ela currently has limited spaces for Intuitive Eating coaching and if you'd like to reconnect with movement, contact Christine.

AND if you enjoyed this episode, please share and follow the 'Find Your Strong podcast' and if you have time, write us a short review. It would honestly mean the world. Love to you all, Ela & Christine x

Transcript

1
00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:17.170
Christine Chessman: Welcome to Find Your Strong! How are you doing, everybody? Today, we've got a really, really special, special guest for you. We have got Stephanie Michelle, all the way from New Jersey today. Welcome, Stephanie!

2
00:00:17.170 --> 00:00:18.860
Stefanie: Oh, thank you for having me.

3
00:00:18.860 --> 00:00:21.149
Christine Chessman: Oh, we're very excited, aren't we, Ella?

4
00:00:21.150 --> 00:00:25.279
Ela Law: Oh, God, yes, very much so. We've been following your journey for a long time.

5
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:26.489
Stefanie: Aww. Into your podcast.

6
00:00:26.490 --> 00:00:28.459
Ela Law: Costs and everything, yes.

7
00:00:28.460 --> 00:00:30.210
Stefanie: Oh, I didn't realize. That's fair enough.

8
00:00:30.210 --> 00:00:36.299
Ela Law: Oh, God, yeah, Life After Diets has been, like, the one podcast that I recommend to all my clients.

9
00:00:36.300 --> 00:00:37.989
Stefanie: That's great, that's so nice to hear.

10
00:00:37.990 --> 00:00:39.910
Ela Law: It's so relatable.

11
00:00:40.010 --> 00:00:41.850
Ela Law: Absolutely wonderful.

12
00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:46.650
Christine Chessman: And, we interviewed Sarah a couple of months ago, was it?

13
00:00:46.650 --> 00:00:47.330
Ela Law: I think it is now.

14
00:00:47.330 --> 00:00:55.429
Christine Chessman: My goodness, where's the time gone? But that was lovely, and on that note, I hear that she's leaving the podcast!

15
00:00:55.430 --> 00:00:58.390
Stefanie: That's so funny, because it was just announced today.

16
00:00:59.410 --> 00:01:18.680
Stefanie: Yes, she is pursuing in-person work, and in-person workshops, and wants to be more in the community, like, face-to-face, so she had to make room, and so it was kind of a natural time for her to leave. So I'm going to be continuing the podcast, I don't know how exactly it will look, but I'm going for it, because I really enjoy podcasting.

17
00:01:18.820 --> 00:01:26.960
Ela Law: Oh, fabulous. Well, we're hoping for a long time to come with you hosting it. Are you looking for another co-host, or do you think you're gonna… Maybe.

18
00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:43.579
Stefanie: I mean, I think that… I really like having someone to bounce off of. I think it works well. For the time being, I'll just be talking to my own microphone, but we'll see what happens. I'm open to a new podcast host in time, as I mourn this loss, but…

19
00:01:43.740 --> 00:01:51.280
Christine Chessman: I mean, I was on my own for a long time before… well, not a long time, like a year before you came along with Myela.

20
00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:51.650
Stefanie: Huh.

21
00:01:51.650 --> 00:01:52.130
Ela Law: Right.

22
00:01:52.130 --> 00:01:58.609
Christine Chessman: Yeah, it's much nicer now. I was kind of… I mean, I really enjoyed it on my own, but it's just so different with somebody else.

23
00:01:58.610 --> 00:02:07.550
Stefanie: Yeah, I can imagine. More planning is going to be involved if I'm talking by myself. I like to just go off the cuff, so…

24
00:02:08.030 --> 00:02:09.110
Stefanie: We'll see.

25
00:02:09.110 --> 00:02:18.110
Christine Chessman: But, Stephanie, as we were talking before, we hit record, we're really interested to just ask you a little bit about your story, and

26
00:02:18.260 --> 00:02:30.059
Christine Chessman: Whether it's called… whether I say your body story, but really just how you came to this work, which is, binge eating recovery, binge eating disorder recovery, and just…

27
00:02:30.440 --> 00:02:35.729
Christine Chessman: Yeah, how you came into the work, your own experience, and anything you want to share.

28
00:02:35.730 --> 00:02:36.090
Stefanie: Yeah.

29
00:02:36.090 --> 00:02:37.850
Christine Chessman: Take your time.

30
00:02:37.850 --> 00:02:39.150
Stefanie: Oh, okay.

31
00:02:39.670 --> 00:02:44.840
Stefanie: It's a long story. I always try to condense it, but

32
00:02:44.860 --> 00:03:02.260
Stefanie: Well, it started, as with most of us, right, in younger ages, right? So I was in adolescence, and I had dieted, and was just peripherally kind of dieting with my friends and things like that, but it had turned into much more of a restrictive disorder in my teens.

33
00:03:02.260 --> 00:03:07.060
Stefanie: As a result of lots of things going on in my life, and in my family dynamics, and…

34
00:03:07.470 --> 00:03:18.960
Stefanie: things like that, and it, became a highly restrictive… I was never diagnosed with anorexia, but it was… it was that. And I… one day,

35
00:03:19.320 --> 00:03:37.279
Stefanie: I had a binge one day, and it came out of nowhere. It came… I mean, to my mind, I didn't know what was happening, but I remember opening the refrigerator and seeing these foods in there that my mom had prepared for, like, a get… she was having a party at her house, and she'd made all this food.

36
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:42.910
Stefanie: And I didn't touch that stuff. Like, I just… that was just off-limits to me. It wasn't even something I entertained.

37
00:03:42.910 --> 00:03:49.529
Stefanie: But I remember looking at this bowl of pasta salad that she'd made, and I just watched my hand…

38
00:03:50.110 --> 00:04:04.219
Stefanie: like, go, get it, and… and then I start… and I took a bite, and I kept… and I just kept eating it and eating it. And I… the whole time, I was, like, kind of outside myself, like, just watching, like, what am I… what is hap… like, this isn't happening, this isn't happening, this isn't.

39
00:04:04.220 --> 00:04:05.030
Christine Chessman: How many years.

40
00:04:05.590 --> 00:04:12.809
Stefanie: And that was the first time that I ever binged, and I didn't know… I didn't have a name for it, I just thought I had broken

41
00:04:13.090 --> 00:04:18.539
Stefanie: these rules, and I had gone crazy, and I had become out of control, and this would never happen again, and…

42
00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:28.060
Stefanie: well, you know, this started a cascade of binge restrict, binge restrict, binge restrict, which eventually turned into bulimia as well. And that carried on

43
00:04:28.090 --> 00:04:42.540
Stefanie: for decades, and every year, I was always getting it together, and I was gonna fix it this year, and things were gonna change, and I tried, and I tried, and it was all variation of disorder the entire time. I developed orthorexia as well, I don't know if you talk about that.

44
00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:43.220
Christine Chessman: Mmm.

45
00:04:43.540 --> 00:04:45.109
Stefanie: In my 30s, yeah.

46
00:04:45.790 --> 00:04:49.360
Stefanie: So, I had kids, I got married,

47
00:04:49.950 --> 00:05:05.039
Stefanie: I don't know how that happened, because my life was this disorder. I was always just living against my body, trying to shrink it, trying, you know, just battling its natural appetite and natural weight set range. I'm a mid-sized person. I…

48
00:05:05.140 --> 00:05:11.320
Stefanie: this is just where my body is, and, you know, I wanted it to be smaller and smaller and smaller, and so it's just me fighting my body for…

49
00:05:11.700 --> 00:05:20.300
Stefanie: decades. And I was about… I was just turning 40, at this time where

50
00:05:20.890 --> 00:05:24.259
Stefanie: I mean, people ask me what changed, or what… what…

51
00:05:24.270 --> 00:05:44.680
Stefanie: happened to inspire recovery, and I don't know that it was any one thing. It was just sheer exhaustion. I was coming off of a fasting regimen, which made everything 10 times worse, and I just couldn't do it anymore, and I was like, I'm gonna be 40, and I'm gonna be 50, and I'll still be doing this, and it's not any different.

52
00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:48.939
Stefanie: This is all the same thing all the time, and that's insanity, so…

53
00:05:48.940 --> 00:05:52.549
Stefanie: I had picked up a copy of The Fuck It Diet. Am I allowed to curse?

54
00:05:52.880 --> 00:05:53.450
Christine Chessman: Yes!

55
00:05:53.450 --> 00:05:55.389
Ela Law: Yeah, cool, go ahead, we love it.

56
00:05:55.390 --> 00:05:58.959
Stefanie: ludicus. Because that's, I mean, it was my character.

57
00:05:58.960 --> 00:05:59.430
Ela Law: of the book.

58
00:05:59.430 --> 00:06:17.079
Stefanie: That is the title of the book. I'm not saying anything that isn't, you know, fair game. But, I found that book, and I read the book, and it's by Caroline Dooner, who no longer works in this field, but she, at the time, was this voice to me of, like, I have never heard anyone talking about food like this, and eating like this, and…

59
00:06:17.210 --> 00:06:20.680
Stefanie: It resonated, every line just landed for me, and…

60
00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:28.429
Stefanie: I went on this kind of recovery path, starting on my 40th birthday, where I just wasn't going to restrict anymore, and I started

61
00:06:28.510 --> 00:06:43.710
Stefanie: that process, it was an all-in recovery method, and it was the only thing that ever worked for me, and and I have… I mean, that was the beginning of it, and at this point, that's 6 years ago. So, I ended up coaching around this, because it…

62
00:06:43.710 --> 00:06:56.620
Stefanie: I mean, how… I was like, this is what I want to help people do. If I can recover from this, you know, this is what I want, and I love to write, and I love to create posts and things, so I got on social media, and I started a podcast, and I started a coaching practice, and

63
00:06:56.810 --> 00:07:03.290
Stefanie: I'm a certified now in intuitive eating and somatic experiencing, which is a nervous system regulation and trauma healing,

64
00:07:03.850 --> 00:07:10.009
Stefanie: approach. And that is… yeah, that's where I am now, and I, never looked back.

65
00:07:10.630 --> 00:07:14.650
Stefanie: well, actually, I do look back all the time to talk about it on the podcast, but…

66
00:07:14.900 --> 00:07:22.119
Christine Chessman: And, so this, there's so much there. There's… thank you for sharing that. I really, we really appreciate it.

67
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:23.040
Christine Chessman: There's…

68
00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:29.839
Christine Chessman: At what point did you think, I'm far enough away from it to be able to maybe help other people? Because…

69
00:07:29.840 --> 00:07:48.179
Christine Chessman: It is… it's something that I've always wanted to get into this role of helping people with eating disorders, because I think it's the helper… helpie becomes the helper, but often, I felt too close to it. Yeah. For many years, I felt too close to it, so I had to kind of push it away. When did you kind of feel, actually.

70
00:07:48.620 --> 00:07:49.220
Christine Chessman: I'm renting.

71
00:07:49.220 --> 00:07:52.439
Stefanie: Well, it started with sharing, so the…

72
00:07:52.650 --> 00:08:01.110
Stefanie: at, I was on Instagram, and I started to post about a year in, about just…

73
00:08:01.460 --> 00:08:14.589
Stefanie: because I had also been, by the way, a sugar detox coach, so I had… I was an occupational therapist, and on the side, I was this health… I was a health coach. I'm certified from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, which, you know, was basically just a lot of promoting

74
00:08:14.730 --> 00:08:18.510
Stefanie: obsession with clean eating and things like that, so I had this

75
00:08:18.630 --> 00:08:27.419
Stefanie: platform that I had been coaching with, and I started to talk about food obsession and binge eating, and I introduced that.

76
00:08:27.420 --> 00:08:41.969
Stefanie: And was… was just really doing it for me. I was… I was really just kind of almost processing and organizing my own thoughts around this, and really observing, like, look what happens when you stop obsessing about this stuff, when you're not, like.

77
00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:48.849
Stefanie: demonizing sugar, and you know, and look at what has changed for me, and I was writing and writing and writing, and somebody reached out to me.

78
00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:50.529
Stefanie: To say, do you coach?

79
00:08:50.980 --> 00:09:04.019
Stefanie: you know, they had inquired. I remember being like, what? Well, like, I had a coaching certification, but it wasn't for this. And I was like, this is what I…

80
00:09:04.020 --> 00:09:14.049
Stefanie: I do want to code, like, this is exactly what I want to do. At which point, I did start getting my, intuitive eating certification. I started that process of working for that.

81
00:09:14.770 --> 00:09:27.619
Stefanie: And there was something about recovery for me that was so… and it still is this way, there's something that became so clear, like, I… I don't think I could have that disorder again.

82
00:09:28.050 --> 00:09:35.330
Stefanie: It almost feels, like, impossible from the vantage point of just understanding what was going on in my body, and really, really…

83
00:09:35.390 --> 00:09:51.190
Stefanie: feeling in my soul, like, I understand why I've inched, I get it. I understand what restriction is, I understand the undercurrents of emotions that inspire that, and I… it's like, once you see the man behind the curtain, you can't unsee it. And that felt so solid to me that I felt…

84
00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:57.640
Stefanie: competent to… to kind of be like, I get what this is, and so I think I can help people, and…

85
00:09:57.640 --> 00:10:13.039
Stefanie: even if I'm just a few steps, you know, into it beyond where they are, that's a place where I still have something to offer. And so, I then continued with certifications and things, but it really came from a solidarity of really feeling recovered, which I know is a tricky thing to talk about.

86
00:10:14.650 --> 00:10:18.169
Christine Chessman: It's something… sorry, Ella, I'm too late.

87
00:10:18.170 --> 00:10:21.200
Ela Law: I might, I might forget my question.

88
00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:33.550
Christine Chessman: But it's something that I've been thinking an awful lot about, is the origins of an eating disorder, and obviously it's… if you're helping somebody through the eating part, or you're yourself recovering through the eating part.

89
00:10:33.670 --> 00:10:35.130
Christine Chessman: is that…

90
00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:53.980
Christine Chessman: what about the… the cause of the… the eating disorder? So I've been thinking a lot about… the eating disorder, for me, was very much a coping mechanism. It was a way to cope with life, which was very hard when I was growing up, and… and then… so that was always where I put all my emotion, was into that.

91
00:10:54.530 --> 00:11:08.779
Christine Chessman: So it was kind of… it was great. Once I realized, you know, I realized about diet culture, the blinkers came off. Absolutely, I was like, no, I'm not gonna eat like that again. But then it jumped to other things that I needed… Yeah. So it's… do you…

92
00:11:08.780 --> 00:11:18.579
Christine Chessman: Can you just deal with the eating behaviors? Do you need to delve right back into trauma and childhood, and… so can somebody recover?

93
00:11:18.710 --> 00:11:21.119
Christine Chessman: From the eating disorder with slight dental.

94
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.390
Stefanie: Without that deeper work.

95
00:11:22.390 --> 00:11:22.990
Christine Chessman: Hmm.

96
00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:34.169
Stefanie: So a lot of times, I work alongside therapists, because I think that the roles are different, and if I've got… if I'm working with somebody who's got a diagnosed eating disorder, I find, especially with bulimia and anorexia, as

97
00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:44.270
Stefanie: comorbidities with that, depression and anxiety as well. Like, there is… there's more than coaching, you know, required there, and so I work with teams of… of…

98
00:11:44.270 --> 00:11:46.480
Stefanie: people in many cases.

99
00:11:47.380 --> 00:12:03.830
Stefanie: I also work… and this is what got me to somatic experiencing. So, I was noticing that a lot of the people that I was working with had trauma, and that was the, origin story of their eating disorder, and the way that, you know, that trauma had showed up, and eating disorders managed it. And…

100
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:05.250
Stefanie: I…

101
00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:15.500
Stefanie: Therapy is one way of dealing with that trauma and looking at that. Somatic experiencing is looking at the impact that trauma has on the nervous system.

102
00:12:16.380 --> 00:12:32.049
Stefanie: not just… not just about processing a story, or, like, even just talk therapy. It's more about what's going on in the body when that trauma's experienced, because this is the other side of it, right? And I do believe in story and talk therapy, and processing cognitively. I absolutely do.

103
00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:46.020
Stefanie: But there's this missing component which lives here, and it's almost… it occurred to me as I was talking, you know, you know how you could get it, you're like, I get it, I understand that this is how I control, or this is, you know, that my body is not my worth, and you cognitively understand.

104
00:12:46.350 --> 00:13:00.129
Stefanie: But the behaviors are still coming from somewhere else, and it's like, I don't feel safe enough, I don't feel safe enough to really be completely on board with that. And that discrepancy… I was like, what is that? And that, to me, is where that trauma lives, and that's in the body.

105
00:13:00.380 --> 00:13:06.870
Stefanie: That's where the certification to become a somatic experiencing practitioner was 3 years long, and very intensive, and

106
00:13:06.890 --> 00:13:24.329
Stefanie: not about processing through therapy, but about looking at how the nervous system is working, which is why I got that in conjunction with coaching, because it seemed like it is part and parcel of eating disorders. And again, not everybody who binges necessarily has a diagnosed eating disorder, necessarily.

107
00:13:24.330 --> 00:13:30.510
Stefanie: so I think there's different ways, you know, you can work with clients around this, but for the case of eating disorders, I do think there's…

108
00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:41.529
Stefanie: something, whether it's stories or just residual in the nervous system that still acts. And that, there's different ways of meeting that.

109
00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:54.890
Ela Law: Is that something that you personally use for your own, healing? Is that something that you started using and then thought, oh, I've got to train in this so that I can pass that on to my clients, or…

110
00:13:54.890 --> 00:14:04.440
Stefanie: Yeah. Yeah. So, my origin story, right, of eating disorders was a lot about relationship with my parents, and a lot of anger.

111
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:12.850
Stefanie: And a lot of, loneliness. And so, there were some things that happened in my teens that, I just…

112
00:14:14.060 --> 00:14:21.540
Stefanie: you know, put away, and just kept moving, just kept moving, and never really got to dealing with. And so, I had been…

113
00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:37.330
Stefanie: speaking with somebody who's in this field as well, who was in… was get… I think she had a… has a… I think she's getting her PhD in somatic, like, not somatic experiencing, but in somatic work. And she had… she had brought this up to me, and…

114
00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:43.870
Stefanie: talked about it, and I was so intrigued by it, and I… I was like, oh, I've never done any kind of therapy like that, and I…

115
00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:54.080
Stefanie: looked into it, and the more I learned about it, and the more… and then I sought out a therapist in this regard, and I found, like, just stuff I'd never found in therapy, in terms of…

116
00:14:55.290 --> 00:15:12.380
Stefanie: how anger shows up in my body, and how much of that was part of my eating disorder. Like, hugely, and I just was like, oh, this… this feeling right here? This is what would… this, like, this was restriction the next minute, and then it was the binge the next minute. Like, this is what was there. And that part…

117
00:15:12.790 --> 00:15:15.440
Stefanie: Was a whole different way of feeling…

118
00:15:16.230 --> 00:15:28.330
Stefanie: what happens to me? And it was… it was hap… you know, it still happens in these small ways, you know? It's like… like, the same… the nervous system works still in… even if it's about the past, you know, and the present. And so.

119
00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:35.859
Stefanie: As that was becoming more helpful to me in terms of regulating my own emotions and understanding what it meant to feel.

120
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:43.210
Stefanie: without projecting it on something, that became something that I was like, I want to get certified in this, because this is,

121
00:15:43.900 --> 00:15:45.860
Stefanie: This just all works hand-in-hand.

122
00:15:46.670 --> 00:15:54.830
Ela Law: Yeah, absolutely. I'm super fascinated by it, and I'm also currently sort of looking into training in that sort of field, because I think it's…

123
00:15:54.970 --> 00:16:18.869
Ela Law: I've noticed that that is a gap that I feel like I have when I work with clients, because I sort of rudimentary know a few bits and pieces about it, but I think it would be so, so helpful, because as you said, talking therapy, amazing, reframing and thinking about stuff, amazing, cognitively. But I feel like, and you probably can echo this, a lot of clients are so much in their heads.

124
00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:19.260
Stefanie: Yeah.

125
00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:28.850
Ela Law: And that's not the only place to be, and I think tapping into your body and trying to, sort of, explore, well, what is going on emotionally?

126
00:16:29.180 --> 00:16:33.830
Ela Law: You know, with your body, is the missing link, really.

127
00:16:34.290 --> 00:16:35.329
Christine Chessman: Yes, and…

128
00:16:35.330 --> 00:16:38.430
Stefanie: I was just speaking with a client, and we did a… we did a somatic

129
00:16:38.430 --> 00:17:03.409
Stefanie: We did some somatic work in the beginning of this session, and then we moved to… she's like, well, I really want to set up a plan for X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, okay, well, we'll spend some time in the somatic realm, and then we'll go into the plan. And we did that, and she reflected later, she had sent me a WhatsApp message this morning, and she said, you know, during the somatic practice, she goes, my brain is just like, alright, we gotta get to the plan, we gotta get to the plan, we gotta get to the plan. She's like, and I realize that's what I'm always doing, like, it's always about what's next.

130
00:17:03.410 --> 00:17:04.890
Stefanie: what's next was the future, like…

131
00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:24.069
Stefanie: get out of here and get to the real stuff, get to the real stuff, and it's like that very… that very reaction of, the body doesn't matter, the body doesn't matter, like, what's here is not where it's at, you know, is the defense mechanism, right? Like, that so much is going on up here, and that's exactly what we do in body image, with body image and eating disorders in particular.

132
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:43.940
Stefanie: not that that doesn't exist in other places, too, but emotions are in the body. Like, that is the thoughts are in the brain, and emotions are here, and that's what we learn to get away from. So we go to the mind, and it spins, and it spins, and it spins with the energy of the nervous system that's really all over, you know, and it's hard to…

133
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.269
Stefanie: tolerate even the idea of doing this, because it feels like…

134
00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:50.450
Stefanie: the opposite of safety. It feels like.

135
00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:50.970
Christine Chessman: Okay.

136
00:17:50.970 --> 00:17:54.700
Stefanie: This is the opposite of the defenses we've created to get out of that.

137
00:17:54.850 --> 00:17:56.850
Ela Law: And so, even just…

138
00:17:56.850 --> 00:18:02.609
Stefanie: Working with people for a long time on titrating Doing it is… is…

139
00:18:02.710 --> 00:18:19.240
Stefanie: is… it's an art to even, like, accept that this is something we're doing that, like, is helpful. And so, you know, that's why we toggle a lot in sessions, but it took me a long time to feel invested in it, because I preferred to think. It was just much more comfortable.

140
00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:21.989
Ela Law: I still do best, isn't it?

141
00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:26.729
Stefanie: Yeah, it keeps the emotions from being too threatening, and.

142
00:18:26.730 --> 00:18:27.090
Ela Law: scaff.

143
00:18:27.090 --> 00:18:30.989
Stefanie: You know, I mean, it's just the way we're wired at some point, I think, for so many years.

144
00:18:30.990 --> 00:18:31.360
Ela Law: Yeah.

145
00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:51.579
Christine Chessman: Yeah, I used to really think about… think about… I used to be really into thought work, and I used to practice it, and try it, and do… and it never quite hit home, because I very much, as we all do, we feel it in the body, and, you know, my thoughts, I've just got so many thoughts constantly that it was just never gonna happen.

146
00:18:51.790 --> 00:18:56.150
Christine Chessman: So I've definitely sort of prioritized nervous system regulation

147
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:12.409
Christine Chessman: practices, even a few minutes a day, and whether that's tapping, whether that's… but I… I had an experience when my… my mum passed away this year, and I had, I did this dance class, this contemporary dance class, and this is about, sort of, feeling… I had a visceral reaction to…

148
00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:21.810
Christine Chessman: going back to that class, I was like, I can't dance. I cannot move my body in that way, because I knew the emotion that came up when I did

149
00:19:21.810 --> 00:19:34.969
Christine Chessman: that, and I knew that I couldn't… it just wouldn't work for me, and I couldn't explain it. And what I wanted to do was box, because I wanted to channel the emotion somehow, and just find a way to…

150
00:19:35.090 --> 00:19:39.310
Christine Chessman: to get it… not get it out of my body, but just not… I can't…

151
00:19:39.310 --> 00:19:44.370
Ela Law: Did it feel like a safer way to release the emotion? The dancing would have come, like, what?

152
00:19:44.370 --> 00:20:03.999
Christine Chessman: No, it would have been too much emotion with the dancing, and for some reason, I just needed to punch something. And it felt much safer. Absolutely, Ella, that's exactly what it was. But that… I think that was the first time so intensely that I was like, wow, that was not about the brain at all, that was all in the body.

153
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:15.970
Stefanie: Yeah. But that's part of the intuition, is, like, even your own ability to register what you actually needed, like, that you needed something, something more defensive or something more,

154
00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:31.920
Stefanie: empowering, potentially, to hold this emotion at first, anyway. And that it can be… we can go too much too fast, and that is… that's why we backed off in the first place, is because there was such an overwhelm in the… you know, potentially at first, that we were like.

155
00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:38.990
Stefanie: you know, however old. You know, when I first developed an eating disorder, I was… you know, we're…

156
00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:55.910
Stefanie: what do we know at 14 years old? You know, and it's like, I can't contain all the things happening here, and so I have no other way to process this, so I'm just gonna push it up here, and I'm gonna do this down here, and I'm gonna control this, and control that, and to be able to figure out, like, how do you manage it?

157
00:20:56.140 --> 00:21:02.500
Stefanie: In a titrated way, so that you can hold it enough, you know, and that you can hold it where it feels safe enough.

158
00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:11.240
Stefanie: to do this, because I think that safety piece is the key, right? Like, to be able to feel like, I can, I can handle it, I can hold it.

159
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.210
Christine Chessman: So, interesting.

160
00:21:14.210 --> 00:21:23.779
Ela Law: I think safety is massive. I feel like… sort of pivoting slightly, but on the same topic, I feel like, sort of, the nervous system regulation

161
00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:37.570
Ela Law: thing is currently all the rage. A lot of people are jumping on that bandwagon, and whilst it absolutely is evidence-based, and I've listened to a podcast today with Dan Harris, he interviewed a researcher in this.

162
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.790
Ela Law: really good podcast, definitely recommend it. We might put it in the show notes.

163
00:21:41.790 --> 00:22:04.019
Ela Law: on the importance of de-stressing nervous system regulation on our general health and well-being and aging and all of that. I think it opens the doors to quackery as well, and the sort of the wellness industry is jumping on it, as it always does. So, is there anything that you say, well, there are certain things to look out for when people are

164
00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:13.829
Ela Law: looking into this? I mean, what should we be a bit mindful of? What are red flags? And, you know, what do you find maybe helpful yourself that way?

165
00:22:13.830 --> 00:22:14.730
Stefanie: Yeah.

166
00:22:14.730 --> 00:22:15.809
Ela Law: We do it.

167
00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:36.420
Stefanie: Well, the first thing I always say is that a lot… and because this is the field we work in, right? But a lot of it is food perfectionism. So, I took a nervous system course when I was first getting into this, before I even had a therapist who worked in it. And one of… a couple of weeks of the content was,

168
00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:39.230
Stefanie: It was all about Basically, eating…

169
00:22:39.320 --> 00:22:55.300
Stefanie: I don't even want to, like, name it, but eating in a certain way that was extremely narrow and extremely perfectionistic, which stressed me out, you know? And I think that there's so much disordered eating in the world, even if it's… you don't have an eating disorder, there's tons of disordered eating spectrums.

170
00:22:55.810 --> 00:23:13.269
Stefanie: And that's probably more common than it's not. And that… where some of that's creeping into the perfectionism around… and perfectionism would be the red flag here. It's like, are there a set of rules that you're supposed to follow that you have to do right and wrong

171
00:23:13.700 --> 00:23:25.280
Stefanie: to regulate your nervous system, and then it's a diet, or like, or if it's not… it could just be a sleep protocol, and things like that. And what I think that's doing is further stressing us all out, because.

172
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:39.270
Stefanie: We're not doing it right, and we have a… we're a culture of tons of pressure. Like, we have a lot of expectation and, like, ways of doing things this perfect way, and I… that is inherently dysregulating. I think nervous system regulation is less about, like.

173
00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:59.510
Stefanie: doing these practices necessi- I mean, you can. I think that, like, formal practices can be… can work for somebody, but it's less about that. It's less about a checklist, it's less about doing something this right way, mastering something, it's also less about fixing something. You are still gonna be a human being.

174
00:23:59.570 --> 00:24:10.480
Stefanie: this cannot be a way that you're trying to get around having emotions, right? Like, we can't be like, well, I'm gonna regulate my nervous system into calm so that I don't feel angry, you know, or sad. The goal is not to feel…

175
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:19.099
Stefanie: always in control of your emotions, which is a big… I think a lot of what is marketed, almost, as… or maybe that's how people are using it.

176
00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:33.100
Stefanie: it's about being able to be a human being with all the range of emotions that we have, and being able to stay with ourselves, you know, with that. It is not a way to fix something, and it doesn't mean you have to be calm, and it doesn't mean you have to eat in a certain way, and that doesn't mean

177
00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:45.199
Stefanie: Sleep, obviously… obviously, there's a relationship between things like nutrition and sleep, and, stress management and, hydration, and things like that with… and movement, you know, with…

178
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:50.639
Stefanie: health. But if it's coming from a place of, if I do these things, then I will be…

179
00:24:51.260 --> 00:25:03.090
Stefanie: that's a different… then you're talking about perfectionism and performance, and that's not a nervous system regulating thing. That's a different thing entirely, and so I think it's about no…

180
00:25:03.800 --> 00:25:18.499
Stefanie: understanding where the directive is coming from, and also why you're there. Like, what are you looking to do with that? Do we have ideals about what this is going to do for us? Is this supposed to fix us? It won't. You know, and…

181
00:25:18.810 --> 00:25:26.890
Stefanie: that's also potentially a buzzkill for people who are like, I need something else to hold onto, and like you were saying, Christine, like, to cling to.

182
00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:27.360
Christine Chessman: Yeah.

183
00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:31.690
Stefanie: To help me save myself, or, you know, the next thing to focus on.

184
00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:44.709
Christine Chessman: I mean, I see some… there's some parallels to how strength training is being promoted at the minute, so I've talked about this before, but one of my most popular posts ever was when I basically went on a rant saying.

185
00:25:44.710 --> 00:26:00.790
Christine Chessman: you know, I'm stopping banging on about women lifting heavy all the time, because it's another thing that we have to do perfectly, and if you're not lifting quite heavy enough, you're not doing it right, and if you're not doing 3 sessions of this, and 2 sessions of that, and going that, and not doing too much cardio, and not… it's like.

186
00:26:00.790 --> 00:26:01.190
Stefanie: Yeah.

187
00:26:01.190 --> 00:26:10.260
Christine Chessman: Stop it, please stop it. That is not… that's not gonna… there's no, sort of… as you said, there's no fix, there's no answer, there's no perfect way to do it. There simply isn't, because everybody.

188
00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:10.700
Stefanie: Yeah.

189
00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:18.359
Christine Chessman: completely different. And that really stuck a… stuck a chord with people, and it just… what you said really sort of reminded me of that.

190
00:26:19.090 --> 00:26:29.890
Ela Law: Yeah, there's sort of the perfectionism piece is massive, isn't it? It's that we want to do everything, right, and everything perfect, and whatever it is, we need to follow this.

191
00:26:29.890 --> 00:26:30.390
Stefanie: Yeah.

192
00:26:30.390 --> 00:26:33.289
Ela Law: Protocol and these sets of rules, and it's…

193
00:26:33.290 --> 00:26:33.690
Stefanie: Yeah.

194
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:52.269
Ela Law: interesting, and it kind of makes sense that clients that we work with who are often perfectionistic in their tendencies would latch onto something else like that, because if they're maybe letting go of rules around food, then they need something else that they need to be perfect at, so it's… Right.

195
00:26:52.270 --> 00:26:54.380
Ela Law: gets transferred, doesn't it? So…

196
00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:55.480
Stefanie: Yes, you could see…

197
00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:56.459
Ela Law: how that would…

198
00:26:57.570 --> 00:26:58.390
Stefanie: Yes.

199
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:02.480
Stefanie: I think anything that mainstream gets its hands on.

200
00:27:03.060 --> 00:27:22.330
Stefanie: like, it's almost like… it's like, darn it, it's getting too big. You know, it's like, you can use things… everything starts out as a good idea. If it's kept in, like, its place, you know, like, not to become the end-all, be-all, and the second it becomes popular, it's the end-all, be-all. I think the same thing happened with anti-diet culture as well, like, and…

201
00:27:22.330 --> 00:27:41.700
Stefanie: it becomes something new when it gets commodified, and then it's, again, it then appeals to the perfectionists in us. And I think it's so interesting, too, that that was one of your most popular posts, because it's like, I find this as well. There's so many people who are like, we hate feeling all this pressure, and we're so relieved when somebody gives us permission to stop.

202
00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:42.130
Christine Chessman: Yeah.

203
00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:51.840
Stefanie: chasing it, but we're all chasing it, you know? Like, it's like, but on the other side, it's just like, what else can I do to be perfect? You know, and it's just like, it's such a push-pull, I think, of…

204
00:27:51.970 --> 00:28:01.289
Stefanie: the pursuit of it is very, very alive in our culture, and this feeling of, if I don't do it, I'm gonna be left behind, or I'm gonna miss something, or it won't be good enough.

205
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:04.719
Stefanie: But meanwhile, we're all so tired of it, you know, and…

206
00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:07.660
Stefanie: It's just an interesting thing to observe.

207
00:28:07.690 --> 00:28:25.560
Christine Chessman: I, I noticed a post of yours, which this is just showing exactly what you're saying, and it was you feeling, like, this was your way of regulating your nervous system, or just tuning in, was that you were feeling the comfort of the chair you were in, or of the blanket that you were… there was something, some texture, some…

208
00:28:25.580 --> 00:28:40.639
Christine Chessman: And I immediately went, but that's not enough, but I have to do at least, you know, 10 minutes, I have to, like, sit and, like, meditate. And that's where my brain went to, but I can't just… I can't just think about how I'm sitting and how I… do you know what I mean? My brain immediately went, no, that's not enough.

209
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.579
Stefanie: Yeah, that's not, like, that's not a practice, you know?

210
00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:46.300
Christine Chessman: And…

211
00:28:46.300 --> 00:29:05.849
Stefanie: I think that's what somatic therapy has taught me, because it just integrates these small little pockets of awareness into a session that then you kind of carry forward. And the way I practice somatic work, if I ever start another podcast, it would be called, I think, the reluctant somatic, because I am reluctantly, like.

212
00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:09.529
Stefanie: I don't do any protocols. I don't do any, like.

213
00:29:09.580 --> 00:29:14.190
Stefanie: morning rituals or anything like that, and there's nothing wrong with that if… I've just never been somebody like that.

214
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:30.989
Stefanie: But I will sit here, and I will notice outside my window this, you know, this tree that takes up all of the space. It's all just green, and sometimes I look at it, and I… like, my shoulders go down, and, like, my breath comes in, and I… like, I can hear, I can only… my voice slows down a little bit, and softens, and I can…

215
00:29:30.990 --> 00:29:36.109
Stefanie: Because I feel like a relaxation in my muscles when I really pay attention to it for a moment.

216
00:29:36.470 --> 00:29:44.590
Stefanie: And that's it. That's my somatic practice. That's what I do. Like, it's… it's just in the… it weaves in the day, and it's just about noticing…

217
00:29:45.110 --> 00:29:55.220
Stefanie: like, where am I? Do I need to just get into my body? Because I think all day, right? And it's just sometimes passing by the window and noticing something or feeling that blanket for those few seconds that I'm sitting there.

218
00:29:55.230 --> 00:30:02.860
Stefanie: Because it interrupts this. It interrupts all the thinking, thinking, thinking, all the living in my head that I'm prone to do, which I do.

219
00:30:02.860 --> 00:30:16.890
Stefanie: And it's just a break, and that invitation out is the titration. It is sort of like your nervous system's, like, being like, come into the body, okay, come back, integrate a little, okay. And that, to me, is more…

220
00:30:17.520 --> 00:30:25.250
Stefanie: realistic, and it's more effective over time, because it is something… there's something real in it that…

221
00:30:25.410 --> 00:30:41.859
Stefanie: isn't about, okay, now here's my compartmentalized time to do these practices, because that starts to feel to me like, okay, that's a checklist, you know, and I want it to be more integrated. And that's me, but that's all it has to be, like, to say that that's… it doesn't have to be fancier.

222
00:30:42.160 --> 00:31:04.829
Ela Law: That's… I love that so, so much. I use a similar approach with mindfulness, because people think, oh, they have to sit on a cushion for 20 minutes and be really mindful about everything, or have a mindful meal, and whilst, you know, applaud it, you know, if people manage to do that. I feel like, well, can you brush your teeth mindfully? Can you… how can you integrate it into every day? Can you walk down the street and actually just look around you?

223
00:31:04.830 --> 00:31:19.650
Ela Law: And I love how you sort of make it less of a formal thing, but more of a realistic, actually achievable thing, because when we have all of these protocols, we're setting ourselves up to fail, because, you know, we probably won't have time, something happens.

224
00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:20.550
Stefanie: Right.

225
00:31:20.550 --> 00:31:35.440
Ela Law: out of the water, and it's just like, oh, damn, let's not bother. Right. But with that, sitting on the couch and feeling the cushion or the blanket that you've got with you, that's something you don't have to prepare for. That's just something that, when you practice it, you… I love that so, so much.

226
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:35.820
Stefanie: Yeah, yeah.

227
00:31:35.820 --> 00:31:36.960
Ela Law: I'm gonna remember that.

228
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:43.720
Christine Chessman: Yeah. Can we circle back, because we're running out of time? Oh, we are, aren't we?

229
00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:53.549
Christine Chessman: back to, a topic that we were really interested in chatting to you about, which you've… there's a post that is, like, for me, I was gonna say the perfect post, but now with.

230
00:31:53.550 --> 00:31:54.940
Stefanie: Don't talk about bankrupt.

231
00:31:54.940 --> 00:31:59.019
Christine Chessman: You talk about two different ways of having a body.

232
00:31:59.020 --> 00:31:59.410
Stefanie: Oh, yeah.

233
00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:08.349
Christine Chessman: And we both loved this, because I'd never thought of it like that before. You talk about the objectified body and the living body.

234
00:32:08.370 --> 00:32:25.480
Christine Chessman: And I think I'm always trying to strive for the living body, and not thinking at all about the objectified body, in the sense that if I do think… worry about my appearance, I'm immediately feeling bad about it, and that I shouldn't, you know, be thinking… spending so much time on that.

235
00:32:25.810 --> 00:32:26.480
Stefanie: Yeah.

236
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:30.079
Christine Chessman: Can you just, sort of, dig into that a little bit?

237
00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:30.780
Stefanie: Yeah.

238
00:32:30.830 --> 00:32:48.940
Stefanie: this was another perfectionism thing, because, body positivity was, I think, more the word de… du jour when I first started recovering, and so I started looking into body positivity in the beginning. And I couldn't. I just was not capable of getting to a place of…

239
00:32:48.940 --> 00:32:57.479
Stefanie: loving my objective body. And also, that's not my personality either, so I don't know what's what, but I…

240
00:32:58.070 --> 00:33:09.390
Stefanie: I found it much more realistic to find body neutrality, which was not feeling neutral about my body, and that's a misconception. It doesn't mean that you don't care, or that you're like, my body's fine. It's not what it is.

241
00:33:09.390 --> 00:33:20.589
Stefanie: it's… it's that you can have a very visceral reaction to… to your body, and when I see myself in the mirror, sometimes, you know, depending on the regulation, you know, where my nervous system's at, I… sometimes I'm like.

242
00:33:20.590 --> 00:33:27.459
Stefanie: ugh, I have frustration, and again, that… that anger, you know, not necessarily anger anymore, but something like that.

243
00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:29.770
Stefanie: Energy comes up.

244
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:35.250
Stefanie: And I was like, you know what? I'm trying to fix this. I'm trying to make this go away, and it's…

245
00:33:35.490 --> 00:33:51.629
Stefanie: It's not. My opinion is my opinion about the way I look, because I have been socialized, so that's just there. And instead of trying to make that go away, I'd prefer to acknowledge that that's there, and just be able to put it in a smaller container, like, to be able to be like, yes.

246
00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:56.579
Stefanie: Just the same way that, I don't know, something else takes up some of my attention, but not all of it.

247
00:33:56.580 --> 00:34:11.690
Stefanie: And that's neutrality, is to be able to kind of… it's not the whole thing, it's something you can be like, yes, I care, and I'm neutral about the fact that I care. So, this living body versus objectified body was the acceptance of that. It was like…

248
00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:36.009
Stefanie: I prefer to live in first person, and to live in a way where I'm experiencing my life from the inside out. This is my preferred place to be. I'm not thinking about how I look, and from that place, I am more regulated. When I do see myself in a reflection or a photo, or become aware of my body as its image, I will have a response that is reflective of the society I have internalized.

249
00:34:36.010 --> 00:34:37.040
Stefanie: I will.

250
00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:54.649
Stefanie: And I don't need to run… I don't need this to be perfect. I don't need to make that go away in order for me to have good body image. Like, I just need to understand what to do with that, and where to put that in its place, and understand that is not all of my life. That is a piece of my body. My body is also experienced by me in this other way most of the time.

251
00:34:54.650 --> 00:35:11.029
Stefanie: And I can live with two things being true. And that set me free, because then I didn't have the pressure of needing to fix it, or needing to force myself into believing something about my body that I didn't believe, or even not caring. I'm allowed to care, and I do. And there are times when I care.

252
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:15.820
Stefanie: More than others. Particularly shopping, you know, or aging.

253
00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:17.670
Christine Chessman: I have reactions.

254
00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:32.089
Stefanie: And that's fine, that's not a deal-breaker. Like, it's kind of like with the emotions, it's like, you're not… we're not here to fix everything. We just won't… we won't be able to. And so, I'd rather just learn how to cope, which is kind of how I think about it.

255
00:35:32.470 --> 00:35:39.699
Stefanie: It's kind of the meaning that you attach to it, or rather that you don't attach to it. It's just, like, it's there, I acknowledge it.

256
00:35:39.700 --> 00:35:43.029
Ela Law: can't run away from it, can't fix it.

257
00:35:43.030 --> 00:35:43.380
Stefanie: Huh.

258
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:53.629
Ela Law: So it's a lot more, it's hard to practice that, but I think it's a lot more sort of balanced view to say, okay, well, this is there.

259
00:35:54.820 --> 00:36:00.500
Ela Law: Yes. …anything about it, because that's the society we live in that dictates that, you know, that's how we feel.

260
00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.360
Stefanie: Yeah, it's kind of like having a parent who

261
00:36:05.140 --> 00:36:11.469
Stefanie: like, when I grew up, if I felt anything, my mom would be like, it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal, you know?

262
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:23.030
Stefanie: And it's kind of like having a parent be like, oh, I totally get it. Like, yeah, that is a big deal, I understand. And also, here's what we're gonna, you know, like, it's being able to be validated.

263
00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:23.630
Ela Law: Yep.

264
00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:35.149
Stefanie: And also, that it doesn't have to become the end-all, be-all, right? So we don't need to spiral there. And you're right, it's not easy. So, that's where the body image work for me has been, is like, how do I actually regulate…

265
00:36:35.530 --> 00:36:54.020
Stefanie: that… the presence of that emotion, and not have it be taking up so much space. That was work, that was hard for me, but this was the theory behind the pursuit, like, understanding that it is not an emergency when I feel activated. It's… it's not… because that would make me more…

266
00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:08.139
Stefanie: like, oh no, everything's falling apart, and it's like, no it's not, you're just having feelings, and you might be sitting in this today. And it will also go away, because we know that we go into our living body a lot, so it will also pass, and we can tolerate this in the meantime.

267
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:08.880
Ela Law: Bye.

268
00:37:08.900 --> 00:37:23.229
Christine Chessman: I mean, that's such a great way of looking at it. It's, because I think, you know, aging definitely is kicking everybody in the butt at this… you know, I'm 49, Ella's 49, birthday twins, kind of.

269
00:37:23.230 --> 00:37:24.010
Stefanie: Well, no.

270
00:37:24.010 --> 00:37:25.570
Christine Chessman: No, we're not at all, but you're twins.

271
00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:29.150
Ela Law: Yeah, good year, good year. Yeah.

272
00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:34.749
Christine Chessman: I think I'm sort of turning 50, all of my best mates are turning 50 this year. This is our year of 50.

273
00:37:34.750 --> 00:37:35.170
Ela Law: Right.

274
00:37:35.170 --> 00:37:52.779
Christine Chessman: And I have to take videos of myself every day, because I train online, and I have to upload videos, and there's many times which I will go, ugh, and… and the panic I get, you talked about anger, there's a panic in me, you know, if I see, oh my… what is my skin… what is… and I…

275
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:58.379
Christine Chessman: And at that point, I could spiral, and I could be in that for hours, like, literally, but

276
00:37:59.300 --> 00:38:09.209
Christine Chessman: But it's the second voice going, I can't believe you're worrying about this, I can't believe you're… that's the bit that is actually the… the worst, because you feel so bad about feeling like that, you're like…

277
00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:12.419
Stefanie: Yeah, and you're like, I do this for a living? What?

278
00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:13.010
Christine Chessman: Yep.

279
00:38:13.010 --> 00:38:20.650
Stefanie: I mean, no, of course you feel like that, because you live in the world you live in, like, especially now with all of the anti-aging campaigns, like, it's…

280
00:38:20.830 --> 00:38:35.180
Stefanie: of… you… we can't… I think it's, unrealistic for us to expect that we wouldn't be influenced by that, to some degree. We're influenced by things outside of our consciousness, so we fight consciously, I mean, I do.

281
00:38:35.330 --> 00:38:48.299
Stefanie: But there's stuff going on subconsciously, and that's not something I have control over, right? That's marketing, that's media, that's gonna be there, and so I don't feel bad for when I have those moments, because they're not my values, but they're

282
00:38:48.300 --> 00:39:00.110
Stefanie: It's the influence, and it's the conditioning getting picked up on from ages ago, too. It's the echoes and the memory of what it means to belong and to not belong, and to, you know, feel fear about even just

283
00:39:00.220 --> 00:39:01.250
Stefanie: you know.

284
00:39:01.250 --> 00:39:09.040
Christine Chessman: mortality and things like that, I mean, it can get existential, but it's… it's totally reasonable to have those reactions, you know, and…

285
00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:23.690
Stefanie: I think it's more, helpful to name them and to say, that's okay, that's okay. How I'm gonna… how I'm gonna hang out with myself in the meantime is my… that's my role, right? To be… to not self-abandon. And that's the skill to me.

286
00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:36.250
Christine Chessman: Are you very… you can, you know, you can obviously say I don't want to talk about it, but are you very conscious in how you talk about your body or food around your children, around your girls?

287
00:39:36.620 --> 00:39:41.480
Stefanie: Yeah, so I don't talk about my body to my girls.

288
00:39:41.870 --> 00:39:49.930
Stefanie: This became… so there was a period of time where I wouldn't talk about their bodies either, and I was very, like, we don't talk about bodies, we don't talk about

289
00:39:50.050 --> 00:40:00.239
Stefanie: beauty, you know, like, I'm not gonna tell you you're pretty, like, I want you to value other things about yourself. And then I was like, well, that's not…

290
00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:12.949
Stefanie: that's also calling attention to it by the refusal to discuss it. So, I… I talk openly with my high school daughter about it, because she's at the age where she can understand that, and she knows my position on

291
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:30.619
Stefanie: how I present it, mostly, is, like, I think our culture is obsessed with bodies, and I think that our culture will convince us that we're supposed to be doing certain things, to look a certain way that we're supposed to look, and that we also should be telling other people what they should be doing, and, like, judging them.

292
00:40:30.620 --> 00:40:39.630
Stefanie: And I point out the culture a lot. I don't talk so much about my, like, insecurities or vulnerabilities, right? Like, I don't…

293
00:40:39.830 --> 00:40:48.169
Stefanie: go there because she hasn't asked yet, you know? Like, and I don't know, if she did, you know, I probably… she knows that I have a history with,

294
00:40:48.810 --> 00:40:51.580
Stefanie: an eating disorder, she does know that.

295
00:40:51.930 --> 00:41:10.649
Stefanie: But I front face a lot more of my values to her. I also have told her that, you know, there's times where it's hard to deal with a culture that is, you know, that thinks one way when I think another way. And it makes… it's difficult. And that's as much as we do talk about it, because,

296
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:29.550
Stefanie: it just hasn't… I think as they get older, I would talk more about the actual ins and outs of it, but I think for purposes of raising them and where their questions are at now, that it's been more cultural commentary. That resonates, that's sort of going completely the other way, because I've done that for a while. I just did not comment.

297
00:41:29.560 --> 00:41:34.689
Ela Law: And I've loosened the reins a little bit, and I was like, oh, that looks nice on you.

298
00:41:34.690 --> 00:41:35.080
Stefanie: Yeah.

299
00:41:35.080 --> 00:41:35.770
Ela Law: today.

300
00:41:36.100 --> 00:41:53.100
Ela Law: And it's sort of like, this is weird, me saying that, because I don't want to make it about appearance, but then I often sort of come back with, like, but it's not the most important thing about you. Like, oh, damn it, how do you navigate this? Oh, dear.

301
00:41:53.100 --> 00:41:59.029
Christine Chessman: I find it very hard to not get on my soapbox about, like, the Kardashians, for example.

302
00:41:59.030 --> 00:41:59.989
Ela Law: Oh, God, yeah.

303
00:42:00.230 --> 00:42:04.289
Christine Chessman: So I do… my daughter just gets so fed up with me, she's like, here we go.

304
00:42:04.290 --> 00:42:05.670
Ela Law: Just laugh.

305
00:42:05.670 --> 00:42:07.829
Stefanie: Let me watch the show and enjoy it, and I'm like… Yes.

306
00:42:08.200 --> 00:42:08.579
Christine Chessman: Do you know.

307
00:42:08.580 --> 00:42:09.030
Stefanie: Oh, yeah.

308
00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:11.969
Christine Chessman: They were peddling lollipops. I cannot stop myself.

309
00:42:12.430 --> 00:42:13.210
Christine Chessman: Stop it!

310
00:42:13.210 --> 00:42:14.790
Ela Law: I know, I do the same, it's like.

311
00:42:14.790 --> 00:42:15.650
Stefanie: I do too.

312
00:42:15.650 --> 00:42:17.920
Ela Law: What do you notice in this scene?

313
00:42:18.730 --> 00:42:20.250
Ela Law: It's the same. It's just…

314
00:42:20.250 --> 00:42:20.700
Stefanie: I know!

315
00:42:20.700 --> 00:42:23.670
Ela Law: Let me watch the bloody film, Mother!

316
00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:37.920
Stefanie: Do you know that my daughter said to me, and I don't know if it's just her, and it could be, but, because I do the same thing, again, it's the cultural commentary, it's like, do you see what the marketers are doing? And my daughter will be like, Mom, like, you're the only mom who, like.

317
00:42:38.120 --> 00:42:45.709
Stefanie: even talks about that, you know? One time, one time, I will never forget it, and I'll keep reminding her of it, she said.

318
00:42:46.450 --> 00:43:09.620
Stefanie: I'm glad you do that. She said, I'm glad that I know. And she was like, it's annoying, but I'm glad that I know. And I took that and ran with it, and I'm like, okay, because maybe… It's like, you know how they're teenagers, so they're gonna be like, you're so annoying. But there might be a part of them that's like, but I might need that later, you know, like, or I'm… or I'm glad to have that awareness, even though it's annoying. And I think it's the same as, like, the way, you know.

319
00:43:09.660 --> 00:43:19.479
Stefanie: do we roll our eyes when our parents, like, give us hugs at a certain age? Yes. But also, are we glad they're giving… you know what I mean? Like, do… are we taking that in? Yes, and I think…

320
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:34.489
Stefanie: you know, that it's creating awareness in a society that otherwise you wouldn't have it, and they would bring you far, far, you know, to the other side, which is what happened to us. So, I think it's, I don't feel that bad about it.

321
00:43:34.490 --> 00:43:46.509
Ela Law: No, I so agree with you there. I think it's really important, and I think it will sink in somewhere. I know I get the piss taken out of me by my children when someone makes a fatphobic comment. They look at me straight away, like.

322
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:47.990
Stefanie: Yes.

323
00:43:48.090 --> 00:44:08.509
Ela Law: And they know, they really know, they know my views on it, and they… it's sunk in. And, you know, that's the only thing I can do. They're surrounded by peers and social media and films and media in general that tells them the other story. So, you know, if I get the odd eye roll for pointing something out, I take that.

324
00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:10.080
Stefanie: Yeah, agree. I agree.

325
00:44:11.250 --> 00:44:30.950
Christine Chessman: Oh, we're gonna have to wrap it up, and I'm very, very, very sad, because that was a fantastic conversation. We're so happy to have had you on, and we would love you to let us know where we can find you. If any listeners, kind of, are listening and just want to work with you immediately, what's the best way for them to contact you?

326
00:44:31.200 --> 00:44:48.839
Stefanie: I am… I do have a podcast called Life After Diets Podcast, which we'll see where that ends up going, but I am also, you can find me at Iam StephanieMichelle on, Substack, Instagram, lately TikTok, I'm dabbling, and my website is also imamstephanieMichelle.com.

327
00:44:49.340 --> 00:45:01.690
Ela Law: Brilliant. We'll put that in the show notes so that people can go straight to you and find out more. And well done for doing TikTok. I haven't tried. I'm not… I'm just so scared of it, I just… I'm just… I don't think I'm gonna go.

328
00:45:01.690 --> 00:45:09.139
Stefanie: I have a formula, and I just put up one kind of post all the time, and it takes me 2 seconds to write a sentence, and I just send it, and if it fails, that's fine.

329
00:45:09.140 --> 00:45:09.840
Ela Law: Scrolling.

330
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.510
Christine Chessman: That's all good, yeah.

331
00:45:10.510 --> 00:45:12.840
Ela Law: Oh, good, good, yeah, that's it.

332
00:45:13.140 --> 00:45:16.920
Christine Chessman: Thank you so much, Stephanie, and yeah, thank you.

333
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:19.110
Stefanie: Thank you for having me, it was really nice to meet you both.

334
00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.060
Ela Law: Really lovely to meet you.